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Andy wrote:

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Dutin wrote:

All content that is locked out by the stars is BS!.

 

Remove that and it will be atleast tolerable.   With no Guild hall.   The guilds mobility to move and respond to attacks is non-existant.  cant buy Sovering or Warlord gear,    Karl has shut his door and moving on.   Can't finish Eqpic Quests.  Same reason Door is shut.  Only way to increase stars...  Do Sewers YAY!  Just what I want to spend my time doing is sewers in Altdorf that is build for rank 20's.  

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This feedback has already been passed along to the development team and is being taken into consideration. We understand that it can be frustrating and we are communicating this sentiment. 

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Good to hear that.... really my pet peeves with the game boil down to this right now:

1) City sieges are too frequent due to no fortresses and redesigned keeps (which are easier to take than the old ones, as well as having the 9-man limit on AOE).

2) Scenarios are eliminated during a city siege (not fun! Bring back the city scenarios or allow us to play all of them during a siege).

3) No crests (virtually a zero drop rate) or medallions when solo'ing in RVR: I've seen a whopping two Officer Medallions off one guy, in several days of heavy RVR for several hours a day each. I have heard that it was done to help prevent crest farming from exploiters, but I'd say the solution to that is more CSR monitoring and a lowering of the rate for solo'ers, not the elimination of it. This issue especially has me up in arms.

4) The post I quoted... =).

AP is a bug you fixed, and the game is much better for it.

If you need something to do, how about addressing CC some more.   Basically, CC is still an unreliable joke except for Stagger in very small fights.    In anything large, there are too many classes and specs forced to use DoTs and AE to be fully effective and CC is unreliable for saving soft targets.

Would be a much better focus than "should we unfix this bug that made AP a non-issue" in my opinion.

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Zosk wrote:

AP is a bug you fixed, and the game is much better for it.

 

If you need something to do, how about addressing CC some more.   Basically, CC is still an unreliable joke except for Stagger in very small fights.    In anything large, there are too many classes and specs forced to use DoTs and AE to be fully effective and CC is unreliable for saving soft targets.

 

Would be a much better focus than "should we unfix this bug that made AP a non-issue" in my opinion.

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We are not "unfixing" the AP Fix. That much is safe to say. 

Its kinda funny how quickly people got used to the ap bug, now that ap is back to how it used to be.

As far as city pushes...

Destro on Iron Rock have gotten into the city stage 2 several times over the halloween weekend (the second time on saturday came only a couple hours after the previous). If you were not interesting in going to the city, there was NOTHING to do for the majority of the day. The 1+ city sieges a day is way to old, even without the extra few hours of stage2.

The combination of a second ramp on keeps (really cant defend against a zerg anymore) and the removal of the last ditch defense of forts has made it WAY to easy to get into the city currently. If nothing else, make it so you have to lock all 3 pairings instead of 2 to get into the city, or make it so you have to take at least 1 fort.

Same as most,

get rid of diminishing returns in City Sieges.

keep scenarios open or have the City Siege scen available (but not count towards stage II)

I don't mind the frequency atm but it should have a timer on it. I think perhaps making forts available again since the performance tweaks? or require 1 fort. Not sure on this one... 

Insentive to hit the Generals in the city Siege PQ.

Please double the VP reward when the PQ is completed by killing the Generals.

SO if the PQ is finished with just the objective control(points). the realm gets 7 VP. If the PQ if finished by killing then General, the realm gets 14VP.

Concerns:

1) The game stops when the city gets push on purpose or on accident. Once a city is attacked there is nothing to do except log off if you do not have time to participate in the city. 

2) The cities are WAY too easy to get to, and the content is boring. Not to mention the Destro guards do nothing at all. 

3) Casual players cannot play anymore because either the city is being attacked, or it has fallen. 8 hrs after a city falls is just stupid. 

4) People are not playing their main toons because they don’t want to drop crests, OR they are sick of a level 28 alt getting them. 

5) Apprentice system does not work on scaling down to help new players, or to play in t3 all of your toons are t4. 

6) Activate punk buster for the love of god, these 3rd party clients are everywhere. 

7) Melee are new way op, and messages “something hit you for xxx" needs to be address. Might be a hack or a bug, but getting 1 shotted by WE/WH and slayers

8)  Let us queue for Scenarios when the city is locked. You should not force people to make the decision to go to the city or log off, and that is what you have done. 

Suggestions:

1) Make a massive coliseum style SC, a death gauntlet or something so whole war bands can queue to kick the hell out of another war band. 

2) Alliances do not get rewards; why not give them a rewards system so that they have an extra advantage for staying together? 

3) I want to cut someone head off put it somewhere for me to look at. 

4) Rage quit is starting to storm the servers because people cannot play. Throw the players that have over a year a free month for the love of god. 

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Andy wrote:

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Zosk wrote:

AP is a bug you fixed, and the game is much better for it.

 

If you need something to do, how about addressing CC some more.   Basically, CC is still an unreliable joke except for Stagger in very small fights.    In anything large, there are too many classes and specs forced to use DoTs and AE to be fully effective and CC is unreliable for saving soft targets.

 

Would be a much better focus than "should we unfix this bug that made AP a non-issue" in my opinion.

---

 

We are not "unfixing" the AP Fix. That much is safe to say. 

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Then are you going to reassess the AP costs for abilities on a class by class basis? The WL still has some of the costliest abilities in the game (pounce is 50 AP! 50!) so for the most part we are always out of AP. If our AP costs are to remain so exorbitantly high, what about giving us more damage? Currently we are regularly outdpsed by chosen, and their abilities cost less as well.

I feel like a lot of these changes were made without all classes in mind.

1.3.2 is what make huge not satisfied customers. besides that, why the freaking 9sec AE stagger come from the most toughness class in the game (kotb and chosen)? They already have insane armor and toughness with big damage (i know chosen dmg is way better than kotb but kotb isn't bad either), with the 9sec stagger and root, you make the most OP class in the game. 

even worst, some damage doesn't wake up the staggered target  (was it because of server lag? I don't know coz I got some ae dmg or dot but it didn't wake me up from the mez unless I am actually hit by the white con KOTB crit me for 1200+ damage)

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Liandel wrote: ...Then are you going to reassess the AP costs for abilities on a class by class basis? The WL still has some of the costliest abilities in the game (pounce is 50 AP! 50!) so for the most part we are always out of AP. If our AP costs are to remain so exorbitantly high, what about giving us more damage? Currently we are regularly outdpsed by chosen, and their abilities cost less as well.

I feel like a lot of these changes were made without all classes in mind.

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I was just having this discussion with Nate the other day.

Short answer is yes, we are looking at AP costs. Nate gave the WL as a specific example of a career that is currently lacking in AP mangement tools, due to the assumption that much of their DPS comes from a pet which has zero AP costs. This, however, is problematic due to issues with the pet itself (which we are also very aware of). 

We're very aware of the concerns players have over AP management and readily admit that it isn't "perfect" right now, but will assert that it is certainly better than limitless AP and mindless spamming of abilities. 

Stand by your guns Mythic, the fix to the AP bug was long overdue but greatly needed.  

I find the big issue for me is "having time" to do anything meaningful these days.  Other than weekends, i usually find that i only have like two 1 hour time spans per day to play, roughly.

Scenarios = 15 minutes, city seige = 2 hours, plus 6 more hours(but reducable)  Guess which id rather do in that hour...hint: i can do multiple.  City seiges take away options.  Im glad to see the change to 1 hour seiges though, but that could easily mean i only get to fight in a seige for like 5 minutes depending when i get on, its VERY hard to miss a full 2 hour seige.

If the city is in stage 2, i go hunt tome unlocks because id rather not sit on BOs for the whole time im online.  WITH NO NPCS TO EVEN KEEP ME ENTERTAINED<--I miss the old seige for that, at least we had to hit ability keys to do it.

If the city is in stage 1, then i might go help, at least then its not past the point i can make a difference.  But i know i can barely stay on long enough to do a single city PQ start to finish.

Big thing is logging into stage 2: it makes me feel like nothing i do matters anymore, ive already missed the time period i can actually fight against enemy players, and i know i can no longer prevent anything.  Would be one thing seeing stage 2 pushed after trying to stop it, at least then i GOT to try.

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Andy wrote:

 

We're very aware of the concerns players have over AP management and readily admit that it isn't "perfect" right now, but will assert that it is certainly better than limitless AP and mindless spamming of abilities. 

 

 

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I think that depends on your view point Andy, for a class that must slot a tactic (therby giving up a damage tactic) for AP management it isn't much fun.  Where as for a BW or Sorc that just has to mindlessly spam 1 more button it is certainly better.

EDIT:

Which classes do you favor?  BW and WL, the first already has the tools to manage AP effeciently, and the latter is getting a "special" look... please roll a magus.

EDIT 2:  Also please tell me why I can not cast 4-5 of my AoE spells on a consitent basis.  This has been bugged reported to death in the bugs forum and in game... yet I still can't cast my spells when I push the button.

---

 

Knight of the Blazing Sun walks out of the Starbucks with his creamy caramel macchiato.  While walking and trying to delicately slurp through its frothy layer he absently collides with a Chosen who has now spilled his Dunkin Donuts large extra strong black coffee all over his freshly dyed and polished armor. 

 

The Chosen jumps back assuming a solid fight stance with red eyes glowing through the slits of his horned helm.  The Knight gasps and quickly jumps forward attempting to clean the armor of the angered chosen with his rainbow feathers of war.  The chosen is not amused and challenges the knight.  The chosen brandishes his long wide sword and board with a loud “HAA!”

 

The knight now seeing a fight is imminent, prances over to the closest window ledge and places his frothy cup of caramel delight safely aside, snugs up his tights with a firm tug and leaps towards the chosen brandishing his sword and board with an affirming “Mmhhmmm” followed by a shy wink.

 

The chosen sighs wishing Mythic would implement the /finger command.  And then...

 

The chosen charges and the two clash!

CHOSEN: FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT  wait for AP..."God damn it!"...... FIGHT.... wait for AP... "WTH?! COME ON!".... FIGHT.... wait for AP... "RAAAAGE!!!"

KNOTB:   FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT  wait for AP... "Now I'm going to have to get my feathers dry cleaned, but I could walk around the mall while I wait"...... FIGHT.... wait for AP... "Did I remember to feed princess before I left?".... FIGHT.... wait for AP... "I wonder if he knows that red clashes with his black base. I bet he doesn't even care."

 

 

Message Edited by LulzViking on 10-23-2009 03:07 PM

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I lol'd, I almost spilled my coffee, I laughed, I cried...

Priceless.

Now...undo my dang plink AP change, since you should have waited on this AP adjustment/fix to see what it would really be like.

Just my two cents, why not give the healing classes an AP regen buff, or a tactic that raises AP regen and lowers damage. How about some more items that regen AP? Whatever is done I think you should keep in mind; to balance AP regen and damage/healing output. I hated the spam button for the win play style.

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Andy wrote:

I was just having this discussion with Nate the other day.

 

Short answer is yes, we are looking at AP costs. Nate gave the WL as a specific example of a career that is currently lacking in AP mangement tools, due to the assumption that much of their DPS comes from a pet which has zero AP costs. This, however, is problematic due to issues with the pet itself (which we are also very aware of). 

 

We're very aware of the concerns players have over AP management and readily admit that it isn't "perfect" right now, but will assert that it is certainly better than limitless AP and mindless spamming of abilities. 

 

 

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Thank you for responding to my post, Andy!

I agree, on paper one would assume that much of the WL's dps would come from the lion. However in actual gameplay said dps only can occur if the lion is A) not bugging out B) not dead or mysteriously unsummoning itself or C) actually can catch up with the target if it is moving and execute its abilities. Currenly most WL have to slot "Speed training," in order to get the lion to a target that is moving at normal speed. That and the change to Fang and Claw roots the lion in place for 3 seconds, allowing it to be kited even easier, so our highest DPS stance is rendered useless because the lion rarely actually gets to the target.

Honestly, I would be OK with many of the high AP costs  the WL is saddled with if Speed Training would be innate. This tactic vastly improves the lion's responsiveness and allows it to get to the target and do damage. I feel we need this change the most because no other pet class has to deal with getting the pet in range, as all the other pets in the game have ranged abilities. Having to slot speed training to get the lion to work effectively really gimps the class as a whole because it means we are only operating with three tactics at a time.

So in short, I'd be willing to deal with high AP costs if only the pet would run faster and actually do the dps it's supposed to.

Again, if we were playing theoryhammer, the AP change would be fine. In the actual game, it really heinously nerfs us.

But thank you for the response! Many WLs are feeling a little forsaken these days.

~Liandel

I know and will be the first to state on the top of a great mountain that Mythic is busting hump and working hard to make the game better - for that I applaud and salute you all. 

However, it is apparent that you are all overworked, most likely exhausted, and understaffed.  I say this in all innocence because I am sure that these patches are missing things that you had intended to add for the sake of saving subscription rates, bringing my old friends back to the game, and for purely showing you are listening to your class communities.

I'm talking about the further improvement of class mechanics.  I don't want to just be Socrates, however, saying something is missing or innacurate and then fixating on the negatives of your presenation in order to crumble all the hard work you good folks at Mythic are trying so hard to lay on the table that is Warhammer Online.  I will offer my humble advice as a lover of Dark Age of Camelot, and a good portion of Warhammer - and as a pencil and paper player of Warhammer Fantasy Battle (yes 1987!).

My advice is quick and to the point here:

1. Place interns at Mythic.  Allow them to test class mechanics for fun factor and have them in their reports define a "what does this class bring to the table" statement.  Secondly, kindly remind interns that Warhammer only allots for 6 slot groups - which strictly compromises group integrity (considering a tank isn't allowed to even raise his shield in the defense of someone outside of his group - such as say that fair maiden on yonder hill without first requesting said maiden join his group /rolls eyes). Ask the interns to kindly review what makes Dark Age of Camelot (your foundation project mmorpg with a large reputation as a FUN game) so effective. 

2. Review the Keep it Simple Stupid Rule (KISS) that will allow interns to consider simplifying class mechanics back down to what they were intended to do, i.e., stealthing rogues with burst from stealth mechanics, consistent ranged dps from casters with debuffs and crowd control being separate aspects of the class that define it...tanks that are effective carriers of crowd control who can do their job as a tank or 2 handed heavy weapon specialist (or even dual weild!)..medium dps having the ability to do their job and finally a consistent reduction in aoe spam mechanics that have dumbed down players to a run forward and not even target people mechanic till they die routing.

Here's my humble 2 cents on what 1.3.2. was missing (along wth previous patches)...and what I hope could be considered for future patches based on a longitudinal study we old timers like to refer to as Dark Age of Camelot.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm breaking down this post from one I had on the unofficial so forgive me if I skippity jump around a bit:

I don't think ranged dps really works well as a mechanic in this game period, however. BWs/Sorcs have a spam of goofy different ranged dots (BB dot) and some low end burst nukes (sear for bws starters) and aoes (which make sense of they were point blank focused) when we could all better manage a hot bar with the old Dark Age of Camelot mechanics and stop trying so hard to have all these rather yawn fest options we get on a warlock or mage in Warcraft.

DAoC had a lot of brilliantly simple (remember the KISS rule Mythic> i.e., keep it simple stupid)... concepts for classes.

Tanks - could hold aggro fairly easily and have access to CC resists, mitigation, effect shield mechanics (slam and guard, defense based on shield size small shield = 1 enemy, medium for 2, and a large shield could block up to 3 enemies effectively..etc)... and could (ear this tanks) could swap guard on non grouped members (like we used to be able to do in warhammer)....Tanks can guard whomever they focus on (KISS) and are effective at blocking arrows based on shield size (KISS).....

*Choppas/Slayers/Marauders/White Lions*

MDPS melee has charge, CC reduction realm abilities, medium armor, great positional dps, good frontal dps...dual weild - multiple weapon options (thrust, slash, crush or if you prefer hammer, sword, axe, blunt, blades, pierce....) We have a pet class here as well so an intern needs to focus on improving pathing.

*Shadow Warriors and Squigs look here!*

RDPS (ranged damage per second) was casters and archers. Archers could rain heck down on all classes and did sniper specs as well as had access to melee specializations built around shield slam, pet spam, or dual wield mechanics AND stealth....STEALTH For god's sakes..We all know that an arrow has a mule kick behind it.  It isn't a mechanic that just drops some low end damage over time.  A subsequent bleed on piercing and slashing arrows makes sense on top of the direct damage...and blunt arrows themselves should involve stuns if you wanted to go to that next level but still KISS the concepts. We have a pet class here so an intern needs to be placed on this to improve pathing issues (see intern for white lion).

*Mages/BWs/Sorcs/Engineers*

Caster RDPS was direct damage (spam same nuke with debuff support on a target)...so instead of layering various spells on one guy - we went go to the effective and satisfying KISS rule and just nuke away - throw debuffs/inturrupts and support your team. Finally, in regards to mages and even engineers - MOBILE PETS! That's all I will say on that...We would have pathing issues galore here so lets see the intern that is placed on the white lion squig herder pathing issue....

*Witch Elf/Witch Hunter
There's a reason why rogues have high burst dps and horrible armor - it was the yin yag concept of rogues since EQ 1.

In DAoC, rogue types that involved melee have perma stealth just like archers with various improvements on stealth options (such as detect hidden and vanish) - a mechanic that has been utilized successfully in warcraft and lord of the rings online and arguably not entirely horribly in the EQ series (though still not great just far better than warhammer's).

These classes are like medium dps but have effective damage (now get this) that is superior to most classes (in initial burst) if they were able to attack from stealth - thereby making their class very viable (and balanced in regards to being very squishy outside of a hit and run attack...)

Finally - lets not succumb to lore Mythic folks on one thing and ignore it altogether somewhere else.  We all know like in age of conan, lore is a support not a crutch to the game that is Warhammer. This being the case - gender options for rogues are nice - because simply (KISS RULE) people want to play a male assassin in their own realm too...Make a new class mechanic for players on Destro side that is half ranged half dps and 100% stealth eh? Watch your subs increase

Point is..Mythic knows how to do it right - something or someone at the office just isn't letting them - and that makes me very sad inside. Regardless on what political issue is preventing Mythic from forging ahead more successfully  in regards to GLARING player issues - I do believe they are undoubtedly working hard with limited resources.  Enter the intern.....they work for FREE  - gain valuable experience and can save an exhausted developer from a trip to the coffee machine!

The final resort is going to be merging every last server when the game is still barely a year old. C'mon interns and the Keep it Simple Stupid Rule! - where are you both! You are our only hope!

/salute Mythic

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Akalukz wrote:

---

Andy wrote:

 

We're very aware of the concerns players have over AP management and readily admit that it isn't "perfect" right now, but will assert that it is certainly better than limitless AP and mindless spamming of abilities. 

 

---

Which classes do you favor?  BW and WL, the first already has the tools to manage AP effeciently, and the latter is getting a "special" look... please roll a magus.

 

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Wait....WL are getting a special look?! This is news to me! Source?

Because they have said repeatedly we aren't going to get a special focus patch.

And look on the bright side---your pets don't have to worry about pathing! 

The constant city sieges have gotten old. Very old.

I have no desire to live in Altdorf or defend Inevitable City every time I login. 

When I login I might be lucky enough to catch the tale end of a zone take or some RvR, but then we always end up in a city.  At this point there is nothing more to do.  I cannot perfect my jumping in a circle any more then I already have.

Last night in IC while defending, being forced to watch Downeywoo and Oogrum have their epic tard war for an hour in region chat and the realization there is nothing more to do at that point are the reason I am done now.  Aion is horrible, I refuse to play WoW and this game has reached it's end game for me.  

Before you say anything, I am on topic.  The 1.3.2 patch which was not tested in a real world environment in my opinion at all, is exactly what I am talking about.  You can't figure out how to fix the problem so you remove the forts?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand that at all.  Suggestion:  Choose a select group of VETERAN players from both factions as well as a mix of servers.  Give them access to the test server on a daily basis to FULLY test the patches for long periods of time. Let them find the bugs and let them give you honest feedback on things such as the AP costs.  In my opinion, every time you jump and release a flawed patch where you are now reevaluating it has a reaction that affects those of us that have stood behind you.  I don't have to work in billing to know there is a real problem when this many people leave a game.

Limiting the times in a city would be nice, but let's address the part where there is nothing else to do when that happens.   If I don't want to defend or fight the cities, I shouldn't have to be limited to doing only those things.  Sure, I can sit and watch region chat until my IQ drops to 35, jump in circles in an empty Dragon Wake warcamp or maybe I could... uhmm I got nothing.

Something else to consider, do you really lack the ability to stop third party addons such as Warbuddy?  Two days ago I was on Iron Rock in the RvR area of Nordland waiting for a rez.  I watched 4 people fly around changing directions and even fly over my dead body.  A BW flew out over the ocean to the docks and back again while reporting to others that Destro was swimming their way to the docks.  Just in that period of waiting for a rez.  

I am not joining the "Rage Quit" group. However I am suspending my account until some major changes have been made.  I have been a supporter of Warhammer Online since the day of release and I do like this game, but I just can't be asked to pay for something I have lost interest in at this point.  I am a programmer and I do understand the developers points and frustration.

I will continue to monitor the forums for game changes and I may return when they are favorable. Good luck everyone.

~LulzGoblin

P.S. Thanks Imlennidammit.  Glad you enjoyed the story.

Something to slow down city flips would be good.  I am not convinced it is a timer.  Right now, all of the rest of the end-game content is on timers.  Put cities on timers and you could literally have days where ALL end-game content is unavailable because you are on different timers.  Not an acceptable approach I would imagine unless Mythic is looking to alienate a core base of players.

Mythic is in a difficult position and this came out in DAoC as well.  How do we satisfy the gaming objectives of different player personalities.  Some want AP to have a limit where people pick and choose their actions.  This is probably the 'realism' crows of which I am a member.  Other people want AP to be nearly unlimited and bring back the speed and fury of the last three months.  Definitely less thought but, in the minds of many, more fun.

I am not sure what the answer is though I am willing to engage in the discussion.

K

Concerns

AP Management:

a) Why have you put non inductional high dps attacks on 0 cd and low ap cost? High damage should be a bonus not a free gift. Bonus: 10s cd, high ap cost, smart timing when to land this type of attack. War's version: (any non-cd ability)*10 omg Mythic i have AP issues. 

b) Why some (tank) classes can buff and debuff a group for 0 ap cost when other similar archetypes can buff 2 players only for ap cost and there are archetypes that can not do even this? Group buff and aoe debuff for 0 ap and single\double buff for 35 ap cost that can be severed btw makes sense for you? Dont you think that you should pay more for every point of benefit you do give to yourself or a group? And finally give an AP tactic that will grant you with +AP regen for every free buff&debuff - this is flawed logic, Andy, and not earned advantage in favour of some classes. 

Type of damage and armour ignore:

a) Tank class, Magical type of damage, 100% armour ignore

b) Tank class, 1000-1600 armour debuff

c) Tank class, single attack that can ignore 25% of armour only

Do you see the difference between a, b and c damage output? Why do you have such a broken balance for same archetypes. Make all tank attacks physical or provide all of them with magical damage, use the same logic for every example.

Reward system:

a) Why dont we have weapon\jewellery for tokens and cant upconvert tokens to help players obtain their rewards?

b) Set bonuses and set mixing. Set bonuses are not good enough to wear 6/6 or 7/7. 

c) Best loot is from PvE in a PvP game?

Andy, please start to implement scissors paper rock mechanic for all classes in War. Your system doesnt work well and have lots of balance issues because you dont have set of rules without lots of exceptions. Literally bunch of those exceptions which can spoil even a good game.

Have you considered the effect of the AP regen change on PvE?  It doesn't feel like mob damage decreased, although player sustained DPS has decreased due to the lack of AP. This makes PQs and quests harder than they should be.

Is Mythic going to ever change it's rules on multi boxers? It destroys RvR.

When 6 individual players form a group, human error is more common as they have to coordinate who to attack. Specifically, they can say "Ok shoot the healer" and all 6 of them attack the healer differently. They use different attacks (Not just class wise but even the same class may use a different starting attack), as well as each attack is done at a different time. Meaning, 1 person attacks, then 3, then 2, then 1. This gives the player a greater chance at survival.

However a multi boxer does not have this issue. When the boxer decides "I want to target the healer and use [insert attack]" then he will attack that healer with all 6 toons using the same attack. Each attack goes off at the same time, without the human error. So instead of the player getting hit by 1, then 3, then 2, then 1, that player is not attacked 6 times instantly.

That destroys RvR as it is completely different.