isnt the additional range at the expense  of a tactic??

if it is only going to increase 15 ft. to 80...noone isgonna buy and use it.

Tell that to a Magus.

I would use throwing arm if it had a 20ft benefit  85ft.  That would be about right though I suspect it will be 80ft.

Rifle from range.  Hit em with bombs if they move up at all and then run back.

If you nerf the AOE of grenades, it would help to consider increasing the single target abilities in the grenade line by 10-15%.

Blunderbuss needs a boost to offset the lower contribution it will receive from BS (low initial damage).  Tinkerer skills should all be made to function on bs.  Consider increasing base damage of lightening rod, blunderbuss, friction burn and spanner swipe.  Give me a reason to consider tinkerer.

Other than that, having multiple runes on me which stack will be huge.  Time to dust off my runepriest!!!

Ok reading these "intended changes" I am getting very discouraged by this game.  Don't get me wrong I am all for some "tweaking" here and there but from what I read here you are destroying the aoe tree for the engi, not just a little bit, but completely.   You are making high base dmg abilities have more contribution from ballastics, but low base dmg abilities (which means all DoTs) will get much lower contributions which means extremely lacklustre dmg ontop of the already mentioned nerfs to AoE dmg and radius and distance.  LOL are you kidding me?  What is the point for an engi to pick up throwing arm now?  Sure other RDPS have aoe abilites at 80 yards but that is because they dont HAVE TO SPEC INTO A TREE to get that distance it just inherently comes with the ability.  The fact that we have to spend multiple points to get a tactic to increase the distance should be rewarded with actual benefit, not bring it in line with AOE abilites others get inherently.  That is just absurd.  There is no point in getting TA if that is what you are doing.  May as well remove it from the tree and give us something else and just make our aoe abilites go 80 feet inherently. 

Yay you are buffing rifleman tree.  The tree where you have to stand still for 5 seconds at a time to get anything done, meanwhile you get jumped by 5 melee and die, or the dmg you just put on your target gets healed full before you can get your next shot off.  Good thinking.  Rifleman is way way way too stationary of a spec what it really needs is mobility and less cooldown time.  That is why Grenadier tree was useful, it was mobile and you can do dmg (not anymore though by the looks of it).  Seriously if mythic is doing this to the engi class and only making rifleman do "decent" dmg at the cost of having to be a sitting duck for all melee then I think this class is done. 

Hopefully your intended "bringing mirror abilities in line with magus" actually means you are going to fix electromagnet finally. 

I really dont understand what you guys at mythic are thinking.  I sometimes wonder if you want this game to fail.  Really though if you are going to destroy aoe dmg and buff single target dmg what do you think is going to happen?  Party A attacks party B, they focus fire player B1 because aoe dmg sucks and AOE heals are way more powerful then any aoe dmg being splashed.  Thus Party A needs to focus fire hardcore in order to kill player B1.  Player B1 finally dies and they start attacking Player B2, meanwhile player B1 is being resurrected.  Player B2 dies, but player B1 is now back up and attacking Party A.  Rinse and repeat.  Sounds really fun, good thinking.  AOE healing needs to be nerfed through the floor and resurrection spells need to have much longer cooldowns on them. 

Adam, you know I love ya, but I'm not reading anything that says:

-Tinker tree abilities no longer based on strength

-Bugman's Best effect is now affected by ballistic skill and not willpower

-Electromagnet will no longer gauge disrupt chance based on an Engineer's intelligence

Also; if you gut my class with that proposed Throwing Arm change I'll never bring you cake again!  The rest of that stuff looks good though.

Quick thoughts:

Can you consider increasing the baseline damage of firebomb, concussive grenade and flashbang by 20-25% to take into account their new lower range?

Could Extra Powder apply to napalm to make speccing high grenades more desirable?  If not, can we increase its damage or can napalm be the one skill that stays at 100ft? (Assuming magi does the same).  In other words, can you tweak napalm to make it desirable enough for people to continue high grenades? 

Could throwing arm increase straffing run as well? 

You do realize that once you cast your aoe dots you can move right? No other class can do that at 80 ft range. It does nothing to change our mobility. Your fears are pretty misguided. Rifleman damage is getting buffed, but that doesn't mean you are limited to only using Rifleman skills. Engi's are doing over a million damage in a scen and you don't feel that AOE dots currently need a nerf?

Think about what you're saying man. You don't even know the numbers or amounts of the nerfs, or how big the buffs are going to be. Talk about a case of the chicken littles.

Edit: This was in response to Rigorous.

Also I'd like to second Munahif on his: "please fix Tinkerer stuff" post. Please make EM based on Ballistics/Dodge, Bugmans Best based on Ballistics, etc.

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Caligula wrote:

You do realize that once you cast your aoe dots you can move right? No other class can do that at 80 ft range.

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You do realize that when the Bright Wizard snaps his fingers, it isn't just for show? AoE DoT application at 80 feet already exists without having to slot a tactic. You are welcome to argue that it is inferior because of the hex requirement (even though it will do more damage and have better range if they nerf the radius of AB/Frag), but claiming AoE DoTs at 80 feet don't exist for other classes is wrong.

One dot that BWs have to spec halfway into the tree for and does require a previous spell and only does decent damage IF there are many targets in the area AND it has a very long cooldown.

The point still stands that it changes nothing regards to our mobility, or the fact that we can cast something like 6 aoe spells (4 of them dots) from the same range. BW's being able to use Spreading Flames once per 20s from the same distance can hardly be considered the equivalent of Phosphorus or Napalm + Acid Bomb + Sticky Bomb + Frag Grenade + Land Mine + Turret shooting High-Explosive Grenade.

Really, I didn't realize that Spreading Flames had an 80ft range though so I do stand corrected. 

edit: Yes I do know the casting range on LM is 65ft but the radius makes it 80ft after it's thrown. Before someone wants to correct me on that too...

you need a buff to reading comprehension, because I was never at any point complaining about the mobility in the nade tree.  I said that is why the tree was appealing, doing dmg on the move.  I also said that I am all for tweaks meaning some toning of aoe dmg.  Fine.  But with the changes proposed here engi aoe's are taking a multiple hit from the nerf bat.  1) initial reduction to aoe dmg , 2) reduction in dot dmg from ballastic contribution doing less 3) reduction in aoe range, 4) reduction in aoe radius.    The first two swings of the nerf bat hurting the most.  One I can take, but two nerfs on top of each other?  bit harsh when added with the other range nerfs.  

If you read my post correctly you would have seen that I said rifleman needs some mobility and less cooldowns.  I for one dont like the idea of standing in one place for 3 or 4 seconds trying to get a single dmg shot off while my target runs out of range and I get train wrecked by melee.  May be your cup of tea but not mine.  Hence my request for making rifleman more mobile.  The only mobile abilites we got in rifleman at moment are signal flare and incendary rounds, both of which will be nerfed from ballastics contribution. 

My complaints on Throwing arm are valid.  Why do we have to spec into a tree to get a tactic which gives us 80 feet to aoe abilities when other aoe classes get theirs inherently.  Our biggest and most useful aoe (other then napalm - which by the sounds of it will be nerfed to uselessness) is frag grenade and that is a 1 sec cast time so it cant be used on the run like you seem to think.  I have played many many classes and many rdps have range aoe that are instant at 80y without having to spec into a tree to get it.  Hence my complaint that the aoe tree looks like a pile of garbage based on these proposed changes.  Hopefully they will rethink this some more before it goes to testing/live though. 

And the list of aoe spells you put forth. lets see, phosorous is only 80 y and does craptastic dmg for an ability that high in the tree and has long cooldown with 1 sec cast time , napalm is good but ppl have the option to move out of it and get away from dmg, acid bomb great ability, sticky bomb is just a dot until the final explosion and can be removed by competent healers to prevent said explosion so not really an aoe.  Frag grenade also great ability core to engis but has cooldown and a 1 sec cast time - not instant and hence not mobility aoe like you claim.  Land mine? are you even serious with that?  you must be kidding.  Anyway its 65 yards and only actually works like 25% of time, the rest of time it goes off does zero dmg does not knock anyone down yet gives them all the immunity buff to knockdowns.  yay top notch ability. Turret? really again?  its got like 145 dmg and like 65 yards you really including that in good engi aoe's?  

Realistically we have 3 decent aoe abilities - napalm, acid bomb, frag grenade.  Napalm ppl can move out of, frag is not instant and has cooldown and acid does not do high dmg by itself.  And for all these abilites we need to spec into a tree to get a tactic to increase them to 100y. Otherwise they only 65 y.  Why are they not inherently 80 yards? and why are we going to have to spec into a tree to get a tactic that is only going to give us 15 yards of which other aoe classes already have 80 yards on their attacks. 

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Caligula wrote:

One dot that BWs have to spec halfway into the tree for and does require a previous spell and only does decent damage IF there are many targets in the area AND it has a very long cooldown.

 

The point still stands that it changes nothing regards to our mobility, or the fact that we can cast something like 6 aoe spells (4 of them dots) from the same range. BW's being able to use Spreading Flames once per 20s from the same distance can hardly be considered the equivalent of Phosphorus or Napalm + Acid Bomb + Sticky Bomb + Frag Grenade + Land Mine + Turret shooting High-Explosive Grenade.

 

Really, I didn't realize that Spreading Flames had an 80ft range though so I do stand corrected. 

 

edit: Yes I do know the casting range on LM is 65ft but the radius makes it 80ft after it's thrown. Before someone wants to correct me on that too...

Message Edited by Caligula on 05-14-2009 05:33 PM

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Detonate was the ability I was refering to. It is a base ability of the BW and has a 10 second cooldown. 

Is it possible to play a class that doesn't actually see the nerf bat? From the looks of things, your nerfing classes to coincide to the classes you've already nerfed terribly. Why punish the people that should be the standard while not adhering to the people that you've already pissed off? Sounds like a double negitive to me. Of course doing the smart thing is out of the question it seems anymore for MMOG's.

Here's an idea you guys can brainstorm in your little sessions of mindlessness... Set a standard. Don't make other classes weaker because you made it's counterpart a weakling. If you continue on this route no one will be able to kill anyone. It's just a big circle of fail.

I'm not leveling another class because of Mythic's poor judgement. I'll just quit.

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Naezgul wrote:

isnt the additional range at the expense  of a tactic??

if it is only going to increase 15 ft. to 80...noone isgonna buy and use it.

 

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Speak for yourself. I might use it or I might not, but I'd definitely try it, it could go either way.

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Caligula wrote:

You do realize that once you cast your aoe dots you can move right? No other class can do that at 80 ft range. It does nothing to change our mobility. Your fears are pretty misguided. Rifleman damage is getting buffed, but that doesn't mean you are limited to only using Rifleman skills. Engi's are doing over a million damage in a scen and you don't feel that AOE dots currently need a nerf?

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Shadow Warrior (80-88 feet, Glass Arrow and Flame Arrow.) Squig Herder (100-110 Feet with Explodin' Arrer and 110 feet with Shrapnel Arrer). Bright Wizard (Detonate.)

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Naezgul wrote:
gotta love how gtaoe spells all get neutered into uselessness because people are to stupid to move out of the big glowing area

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Even if I move out of PoS instantly, it can still hit me and that HIT usually does 1k damage. the radius change was needed.

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Festt wrote:

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Naezgul wrote:
gotta love how gtaoe spells all get neutered into uselessness because people are to stupid to move out of the big glowing area

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Even if I move out of PoS instantly, it can still hit me and that HIT usually does 1k damage. the radius change was needed.

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