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AdamG wrote:

• A number of AoE abilities have been reduced in effectiveness through reductions in damage, or increase in AP cost/cooldown.

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The only AE abilities I can think of are dragon gun, razor strike with sweeping razor slotted, and morale abilities.

Are all of those being influenced by the patch?  WH never really were an ae heavy class to begin with, so theres not too much to change on us.

When can we expect the patch notes and to see exactly what/how things are changing?

Maybe the comment was more to say "AoE abilities have been reduced in effectiveness, so you poor bastards won't be doing as much damage to only a single target as everyone else is doing with AoE damage."

This looks like a decent patch for us; mostly via what they're doing to other people. No word on whether they're tweaking down BAL damage, so I assume it's going to stay the same, and still generate many complaints. Buffing our damage effected by Strength is interesting, especially if they roll out the stat patch which may encourage many of us to run heavy Weapon Skill builds.

The scary thing is, if BaL isn't tweaked downward it may see increased damage thanks to its very high delves getting even more from strength.

I guess a larger question on my mind is; what value is considered low base damage and what is considered high base damage?  

Am I going to see a decrease in torment (125 base damage when unspecced, up to 184 base damage fully specced) and a fat increase to our finishers (that can range from ~150-600)?

Or is torment base damage considered high in comparison to other abilities on other classes? 

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Raykahn wrote:

The scary thing is, if BaL isn't tweaked downward it may see increased damage thanks to its very high delves getting even more from strength.

 

 

I guess a larger question on my mind is; what value is considered low base damage and what is considered high base damage?  

 

Am I going to see a decrease in torment (125 base damage when unspecced, up to 184 base damage fully specced) and a fat increase to our finishers (that can range from ~150-600)?

 

Or is torment base damage considered high in comparison to other abilities on other classes? 

Message Edited by Raykahn on 05-14-2009 02:38 PM

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That was exactly what I was wondering. I am wondering if this was Mythics way of tweaking Exit Wound to bring up more in line with BAL but I am not sure what tis means for finishers and for Torment.

i'm quaking in my boots - BAL is going to get an INCREASE to effectiveness!

 but if the DoK damage tree gets love like the WP tree is getting, i'll look forward to the challenge. RAWR bring it.

My only question about witch hunters is the effect all of this is going to have on fervor. As it stands fervor, our main builder for the inquisition tree, just lacks that certain punch you get from even an unspecced torment. Both the DoT damage at 3 stacks as well as the initial hit are weak, and now low-tooltip damage abilities are getting less contribution from strength.

A tripple-stacked fervor needs to be hitting MUCH harder than it is now, but all signs point to it hitting weaker. Please pass the concern on to the dev team.

The bonus strength damage could be a double edge sword pending what skills are considered "low base" and "high base". A buff to "positional and situational abilities" sounds very interesting, and the "Barb" buff was definitely needed to regain their purpose. I'm excited to see the specifics when they come out.

100% agree with Shadowstorm. Fervor is just too much work with very little reward. Unless you're speced deep into Inquisition, it isn't even worth paying attention to. Hopefully, this patch doesn't make it even more useless.

* Absolution: Increased the bonus damage from Strength. 

* Burn Armor: This ability now receives bonus damage from Strength.

* Burn Away Lies: Increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Burn, Heretic!: Increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Confess!: Increased the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Dragon Gun: Lowered the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Exit Wound: Increased the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Fanatical Zeal: Increased the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Fervor: Increased the bonus damage from Strength on initial hit, and reduced the bonus

  damage from Strength  on the damage-over-time component.

* Pistol Whip: Increased the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Punish the False: Increased the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Razor Strike: Increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Repel Blasphemy: Lowered the base damage, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Seeker's Blade: Increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* Sever Blessing: Increased the AP cost, and reduced the bonus damage from Strength.

* Silence the Heretic: Increased the AP cost, increased the base damage, and increased

  the bonus damage from Strength.

* Snap Shot: Reduced the bonus damage from Ballistic Skill.

* Sudden Accusation: This ability now receives bonus damage from Strength. 

* Torment: Increased the AP Cost, and increased the bonus damage from Strength.

  When attacking from the rear, increased the base damage and further increased bonus damage from Strength

* Trial By Pain: Increased the bonus damage from Strength.

* The following abilities have had their radius significantly reduced: Blood, Faith, and Fire,

  Divine Blast, Excommunicate, Expurgation, Get Thee Behind Me, Reversal of Fortune,

  Sweeping Razor, Witchfinder's Protection

There are going to be some seriously pissed off people, and many of them are gonna be WEs, about BAL.  Openers might actually be worth using, again, though still nothing like before.  Overall damage boost my mean we're more than a quick distraction and free RP in a real fight.  Specs will be more Judgement-focused than ever. 

Torment looks like it may become more of a DD with a DoT bonus tha it is now.

For those that missed the point, the significance of the AoE vs. Single-target changes isn't the effect on DG and SR, but that single-target specs may become more popular and AOE less and, even if not, the smaller AoE zones might make stealth worth a damn, as the whole battlefield won't be covered in overlapping AoEs. 

Jumped on the test server and checked some of the changes. Had a 2 month old char to test with since character copy is disabled at the moment. Some big changes i've noticed are as follows: (Tooltips now factor in stat contribution to how much damage abilities do so all damage numbers used below are with ~800 str)

Builders

Torment

Originally 35 AP, on the Test server it now costs a hefty 50 AP. Instead of doing 125 base damage from the front and ignores armour from the rear (with no points specced into judgement) it now does base damage from the front and Razor strike base damage from the rear and ignores armour from the rear. My 800 str WH on PTS was hitting about just as hard as my capped str WH on live currently with torment from the rear. AP costs however are heavy and definetly won't be able to spam this ability as much without using openers coming out of stealth.

Confession

More or less the same, does about 570 damage or so before mitigation... hits a lil harder

Fervor

Seems to be still crap overall.

Openers

Maxxed inquisition, Sudden Accusations will do about 170 spiritual damage before mitigation. Seems like it's getting to a nice balance of doing enough damage that players will want to minimize movements, but still not enough damage so they can still move.

It think the nicest change for openers is Fanatical Zeal. Every time a spell is cast this abil will do about 500 damage. Drop it on a zealot with insta heals and if he starts spamming them it should be a interesting sight to see.

Finishers

Dragon Gun

Not Confession specced in live, but it seems that on PTS this ability is only a slight nerf.

Not sure if it's just a tooltip typo but it says AOE radius  is now 20ft at 1 accusation and 38.8 ft at 5 accusation. With the reduction of base damage and increase in stat contribution is seems the damage overall is only slightly less. Also can't remember if there was a cap on the number of targets it affects as well per accusation point.

Exit Wound

with max 15 points inquisition does a lil over 1000 base damage -240 toughness nuff said.

BAL

Forgot the actual numbers but i remember the total damage to be around 2-3k. need to relog on PTS to give accurate numbers so i won't say anymore since people will jump on this anyways to complain about.

AOE

Sweeping razor is now 10ft instead of 20ft

Most 30ft abils are now 20ft including M4's in the inquistion and judgement tree. Divine blast is now 55 ft cone as well. Since we're not really an AOE class these changes don't hurt too much except for maybe our detaunt.

Impressions

Overall DPS has definitely increased across the board for WH's. Didn't do any hard number comparisions, but it felt like my 800 str WH on PTS was doing the same amount of damage as my near capped str WH on live. I may or may not post some better numbers on abils ect when character copies get fixed.

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Lachaesis wrote:

 

Torment

Originally 35 AP, on the Test server it now costs a hefty 50 AP. Instead of doing 125 base damage from the front and ignores armour from the rear (with no points specced into judgement) it now does base damage from the front and Razor strike base damage from the rear and ignores armour from the rear. My 800 str WH on PTS was hitting about just as hard as my capped str WH on live currently with torment from the rear. AP costs however are heavy and definetly won't be able to spam this ability as much without using openers coming out of stealth.

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Ouch... 50 AP! As you stated, openers are going to become key to a Judgment build which I would have less of a problem with if stealth worked better. Although, Razor Strike base damage from the back is nothing to scoff at.

Those are better news than I was expecting.

I have a concern about this class though, and it is called Fanatical Cleansing. The tactic that gives you 50% more damage on all your critical hits. Although not part of the patch notes, the fact that almost all WH abilities are getting a damage buff will make this tactic be even more devastating.

I would assume with the new buffs, a 5 accusation BaL can by itself single handedly kill another target. Please reconsider Fanatical Cleansing in the light of the new damage buffs. There is a big potential for a game-breaking hidden buff right there.

Alright test server back up and character copies open!

Gonna post tooltip damage for all abilities below. For abilities within a tree all values are with max points in it's tree. Str is 1032 with 56 Melee power. Weapon DPS 60.

Builders

Razor Strike

700 Damage

Torment

557 from the front, 700 from the rear with armor ignore

Fervor

342 initial 429 DoT

Openers

Burn Armor

358 Corporeal Damage

Fanatical Zeal

666 Spiritual Damage

Sudden Accusations

214 Spiritual Damage

Baseline Finishers

Trial by Pain

198 Damage Per Shot

230 Damage Per Shot

263 Damage Per Shot

293 Damage Per Shot

325 Damage Per Shot

Absolution

610 Damage

709 Damage

812 Damage

912 Damage

1012 Damage

Burn Heretic

1230 DoT

1434 DoT

1662 DoT

1860 DoT

2088 DoT

Utility

Confess

738 damage

Seeker's Blade

666 Damage

Silence the Heretic

772 from the rear

9 pt abils

 Repel Blasphemy

629 Damage

Pistol Whip

999 Damage

Punish the False

700 Damage

13 pt Finishers

Dragon Gun

539 Damage 20ft

626 Damage 25ft

716 Damage 30ft

804 Damage 33.3ft

892 Damage 38.3ft

Burn Away Lies

1629 DoT 755 finisher

1908 DoT 903 

2190 DoT 1041

2472 DoT 1183

2754 DoT 1328

Exit Wounds

753 stats reduced by 80

877 stats reduced by 120

1005 stats reduced by 160

1130 stats reduced by 200

1255 stats reduced by 240

Keep in mind these are all with MAX points in their respective trees. Also damage does not factor in any mitigation or buffs.

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Lachaesis wrote:

 

Burn Away Lies

1629 DoT 755 finisher

1908 DoT 903 

2190 DoT 1041

2472 DoT 1183

2754 DoT 1328

 

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This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I am sure I could hear more ridiculous things if Fanatical Cleansing is slotted (who doesn't?) and there are some crits involved.

Mythic needs to seriously review this output: It is insane.

And I'll say what I said at release again. Every class will be on top and on bottom numerous times throughout the course of this game.

It's WH's time on top right now, but rest assured we will be back in the middle soon enough.

Well i hoped into test briefly, and here is my input.

Strength bonues are way too  much for all abilities, except the openers.

this needs to be toned down quite a bit across the whole board.

As is right now i am probibily doing 200 percent more damage on all abilities.

I really like the position changes.like to torment, but still the strength bonus is a little too much.

Goodluck mythic i hope you get this right.

The game before favors rdps, i don't want to see the opposite, just a bit more balance. 

I take it all back, sorry mythic.

Now i see the light.

Before the abilities would display the damage without factoring strength or weapondps.

So in reality when my torment said 179.

It actually hit for like 540 with 900 plus strength and weapons.

but instead it said like 600.

I was thinking 600 factor in strength and so so, but when i tested wasn't hittin as hard as i though it would.

The openers buff is pretty nice and is required.

Again mythic i apoligize for incorrect statement made. 

On paper, things certainly look quite strong -- perhaps too strong.

Time permitting this weekend I'll have to grab some live-fire exercise logs.

AOE debuff? I can live with that. pun intended... and yes I also play WH and love it!

This is not something that has seemingly been mentioned almost at all on this forum, so please excuse me if I am mistaken, but with regards to the "Deadbolt" new mechanic for keeps...  If WE's, Marauders, slayers and WH's are kept out of going through the backdoor, then how are WH's going to be of much help in sieges?  I haven't even gotten up to the point of having a WH that can lockpick, yet, but from what I understand, the usefulness of having the skill of bypassing defenses will be almost useless because it would almost seem that any keep that a realm may obtain would definitely use this enhancement.  Now, some might say that a WH might be able to help man a ram or use a ranged siege pad, but for rams, the moment that hot oil comes raining down, a WH might as well just be doomed because most of the healing may be directed towards the tanks that can take the damage.  As for ranged siege pads...the ballista aren't nearly powerful enough to make much of a difference, namely in trying to destroy the oil that somehow can be repaired at a faster rate than it can be damaged.  I'd almost imagine that WE's feel the same way, not too sure about Marauders and Slayers, though.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?