We need to make some noise as a community. It's apparent to get any changes to your class that aren't nerfs an overwhelming QQ thread is needed. So here it is, however keep your posts on topic and to the point. Present some basic arguments.

So here is mine:

As it stands now.

Good blackorc > bad opponents

Good opponents> Great blackorc 

The only natural prey we have anymore is engineers/brightwizards

Witchunters hit me in full darkpromise for like 900-1200 with torment/burn away lies combo.....which is ridiculous for a mdps to hit a tank that hard. armor ignoring,positional attacks or not (this is with 700ish toughness and no focus offense was not running) this is entirely too hard. Black orcs have laughable crowd control. Big brawlin is the only reliable snare we have and it suffers from the same problem our other snare has. You have to fumble through a sloppy plan mechanic to actually hit someone with it. With no other way to close a gap between your opponents besides root its beyond easy to kite a blackorc till he dies. Do chosen/kotbs/swordmaster/ib have this problem. Absolutely not. While its easier for kotbs/chosen, since they can knock you down from space. We have 0 abilities to close gaps. Our knockdown is 2hand enabled, meaning the only group utility with sword and board is guardbot silence duty. 2hand survivability is el terribad compared to other tanks. Most other tanks have a number of +parry abilities that can make 2hand something other then "please god let me crit three times or i'm dead" plan most of us blackorcs operate on. Swordmaster only have to worry about 40% mitigation on most abilities and some others are undefendable. If that wasn't enough they're able to debuff this resistance substantially.  Are blackorcs able to do this? Well we can debuff armor....thats fair right a 990 debuff to a 4k armor tank.....not even close yall can do the math. I hit mdps as hard as they hit tanks. ALL our morals are terribad. I don't even know what else to say they're just plain bad and I want to punch whoever made them in the jeans.

Conclusion: Black orcs are just bad in their current state. They're still viable for group play but if your looking to being able to hold your own v the best players your server has to offer your having delusions of grandeur.  I'd suggest all blackorcs to stick to small skirmishes, because 1v1 you'll just be infuriated that your inferior in just about every way to order tanks except damage on light armored targets.

I implore all black orcs to start complaining..If there are any left out there. The ones I see on the forum now are low level and the class disparities aren't that apparent at that level....but its leaps and bounds in tier 4.

Agreed!  I actually shelved my Maurader (anyone remember those?) in favour of my Black Orc and it just stupifies me about all of the nerfs that Destro toons have gotten.  Don't get me wrong, both classes are still viable but the pendelum of balance has definately swung the other way.  I may be the Typhoid Mary of specialization trees cause both of my favoured paths (savagery and da toughest) are severly broken. 

Maruader complaints are for anoher forum but as for BOs, Cluster is on point.  After reading the colour descriptions for BOs one gets the impression that they should be unstoppable and an ailment dealing tank.  With da toughest tree underpowered, our survivalbility has taken a noticable hit.  While other tanks such as SM or BG can rely on damage absorption shields, as BOs, we rely on armour and hp.  The soft cap on wounds hurts all tanks but BOs and IBs suffer the most.  As far as attack abilities go, as the so called "dirty brawlers" of the game there is a noticable lack of quality ailments/debuffs (admittably, Right in da Jibbles is gold!).  Since our damage is paired against armour, an ability to impare blocks and parries would seem logical, as would any ability that would stun, disable or knockdown.  A tactic to do more damage while a target is snared or knock downed (kick 'em while they are down) also seems fitting.  I can understand that certain abilities require cooldowns but to lock out an entire set of abilities (da good plan) seems unfair both to BOs and SMs.  I'd like to see access kept open to the "second step" abilities until a "third step" ability is used.  This implimentation would add some flexibility as well as keeping the "combo plan" feel intact.  I implore Mythic to rectify this, until then I guess I'll just grind through the frustration.

Gotta agree too.  I have shelved my borc in favor of choppa.  It is everything that my borc was prior to 1.2.  I think the reason that people do not speak out more is because it falls on deaf ears or they get told that threads will be locked.  I know a few borcs that are tired of saying the same thing over and over again.  I gave up.

Hope someone else has the strength to keep up the fight though.  I loved the borc.

Wug

Black Orc

m1 - Quit yer squabblin': 10% parry/dodge to your group for 30s

m2 - Deafening Bellow : 7s AoE (30ft) silence 

m3 - Walk it off! : 120 toughness to your group for 15 seconds (!!)

 

Swordmaster

m1 - Guard of steel : 120 tgh to your group for 10s (look familiar?)

m2 - Wings of heaven : Leap to your target and snare everyone around by 60% for 10s

m3 - Bladeshield : 2798 dmg shield for 10s that returns 600 dmg to attackers  

 

Chosen

m1 - Inevitable changing : 600 dmg, full AP restore

m2 - Tzeech's amplification : +300% healing on the chosen for 15s

m3 - Sprout Carapace : 504 to resists, 1320 armor, 100 ap to your group for 30s

 

KOTBS

m1 - Guardian of light : 3600 dmg absorb for 30s

m2 - No escape : 40 yard root for 10 seconds, + 600 dmg

m3 - Emperor's Champion : +240 str/tgh/wounds for 30s 

 

Black Guard

m1 - Banish weakness : all hexes/ailments/curses removed and 300 healed + ap returned for each effect

m2 - Away cretins! : ae knockback + 600 damage

m3 - Armor of eternal servitude : 990 armor + 2400 healed over 20s

 

Ironbreaker

m1 - Roc clutch : 7s root + 600 dmg  

m2 - Skin of iron : Immune to damage for 5s

m3 - Gromril plating : 7200 dmg absorb for 30s to your group (stronger than our rank 4 morale btw)

I dusted off my black orc to do some ORVR last night. We had a lot of really good large group skirmishes and it really brought some glaring deficiencies to my mind. (some which are mentioned here already)

1.) We have no way to close the gap on someone or to even get a preemptive strike. KoTBS and Chosen can knockdown an entire group from what seems like 100 yards away. If you see a knight on the horizon your dismounted and knocked down and then their group is on top of you. Swordmaster can pounce into the back lines. Black orc has nothing but choppa throw....

2.) Our plan system is almost useless in big fights. I run in to try and silence a BW or healer and with all the CC that I get tagged with I'm literally standing there for 10-15 seconds unable to do ANYTHING. I cannot progress to Da Best Plan to actually get said silence off... sometimes can't even get to Da Good Plan to get a knockback on people. It is that cumbersome. 

3.)  Why is everything a BO has redundant? We have no less than three armor buffs, 2 silences, 2 armor debuffs, 2 channeled shield abilities and NONE of these stack. WTW?!? It is seriously like dancing with two left feet. You have to remember what you've already used because most likely you are wasting AP on an attack that does subpar damage and doesn't even buff/debuff like it should, because you ALREADY did it with another attack that does subpar dmg. 

4.) BO morales leave much to be desired. We need morales that actually make a difference. The only good morale we have is our AOE silence which people are immune to most of the time because youve already hit them with Shut Yer face (which happens to be one of our only decent Best Plan attacks) or they have been tagged with some other form of CC. 

5.) after running most of the night with a sword and board (im specced toughest up to Can't Hit me and the rest in Da Boss) I can truthfully say that we are next to useless in RVR. Sure I can block a lot but so can every other tank in the game. Not to mention most other tanks have a knockdown useable with sword and board. I felt useless. The only thing I could possibly do that's useful is save up for AOE silence and hope that everyone I hit isn't already immune to it.  If I did make it into the backlines to harass a healer or BW I would either get knocked back or stunned until dead by a BW. 

Da Toughest needs some kind of reduction to the enemies ability to CC you. Say a 25% chance to resist stuns, roots, etc or in some way make it so that not only are you harder to kill while specced this way but also that they can't just perma CC you and ignore you until the rest of your team is dead.... 

I love the Greenskins, and really love my Black Orc.  It does seem that we don't really mitigate the damage as we should being that we are a "tank" class.  I was running along last night and came face to face with an Iron Breaker same rank as I was and also using sword and board like I was.  Funny thing is we both didn't do a crap load of damage and it did take a long while for the fight to end but he did eventually kill me off.  We both had our ability on for healing ourselves.  The difference?  His worked.  I remember actually liking to play my BO and being able to heal myself as I ran around "tanking" things.  Now I can't "tank" can't heal myself even with the ability on and I'm tiny compared to all the Choppa's running around. 

I could swear that the BO is supposed to be:

"Armed and armoured to fight in the thick of melee as a warrior and tanker, the Black Orc matches physical hardiness with a down and dirty brawler's fighting style that makes him the heart of any war band. With choppa and shield in hand, he can face down any foe unshaken. However, it is his unique approach to fighting that makes him as deadly with his fists as with either of those tools. He'll knock you down so you can't fight back, and then kick you while you're down. There's no honor among Greenskins, and there's no such thing as a fair fight – and that's the way he likes it!"

Copied straight from EA's website.  What a load of B U L L S H I T ! ! ! ! !

They need to stick what they have said of every class and  make them do what they actually say they are supposed to do!

I also went to the Games Workshop website and was cruising through there and looking in on the Black Orc.

Here is what they say about our BO:

"Black Orcs are the biggest and strongest of all Orcs, and get their name from their dour, grim demeanour as much as from the colour of their skin, which is extremely dark green or black.They take war much more seriously than other Orcs and have the best equipment. Many of their fearsome weapons are captured in battle, and carried as a mark of their self-evident superiority"

I could swear that the BO is supposed to be:

 

"Armed and armoured to fight in the thick of melee as a warrior and tanker, the Black Orc matches physical hardiness with a down and dirty brawler's fighting style that makes him the heart of any war band. With choppa and shield in hand, he can face down any foe unshaken. However, it is his unique approach to fighting that makes him as deadly with his fists as with either of those tools. He'll knock you down so you can't fight back, and then kick you while you're down. There's no honor among Greenskins, and there's no such thing as a fair fight – and that's the way he likes it!"

 

Copied straight from EA's website.  What a load of B U L L S H I T ! ! ! ! !

 

They need to stick what they have said of every class and  make them do what they actually say they are supposed to do!

 

I also went to the Games Workshop website and was cruising through there and looking in on the Black Orc.

 

Here is what they say about our BO:

 

"Black Orcs are the biggest and strongest of all Orcs, and get their name from their dour, grim demeanour as much as from the colour of their skin, which is extremely dark green or black.They take war much more seriously than other Orcs and have the best equipment. Many of their fearsome weapons are captured in battle, and carried as a mark of their self-evident superiority"

Message Edited by Grumpy on 04-27-2009 10:13 AM

---

On my character screen my Maraurder is just as tall as my Black Orc. That doesn't seem right.  

Part 1 

Glad that someone is doing this, the state of BO is not enjoyable.  All I do is spam can’t hit me, even tho I have unlimited AP, do some dmg (around 200ish) from loudmouth and can’t hit me and very high block rate (100%), all I do is stand there and wait coz I know as soon as I am not using can’t hit me, I will drop rather fast.

BO need an overhaul completely in term of skills, design, artwork.

Design

BO are the biggest of the orc race and should be the baddest.  As outlined by my fellow BOs, why Mythic are we so small, why are choppas bigger than us.  Our skin is does not go any darker as we gain level (both renown and base) and we don’t grow bigger or spikier.

BO from lore

Okay, so I too went to Gamesworkshop and read something about BO and my impression should be BO should be big, tuff and strong.  I am going to go into stats.  This is what mythic is currently running for all classes:

Toughness

5 toughness point = 1 dps reduction (so 0.2 dps reduction)

5 strength point = 1 skill dps increase and 0.5 auto dps increase

So what makes us different from other classes? NOTHING.  A silly BW has a toughness increase at the same rate.  My feedback to this is raise tank’s toughness increase rate:

0.20 – 0.215 adjustment left for other classes

0.22 dps reduction for SM (elve skin softer than human)

0.225 dps reduction for BG (elve skin with chaos blessing)

0.23 dps reduction for KOTBS (cause they are human)

0.235 dps reduction for Chosen, IB (human with chaos blessing one of the tougher race made by old ones (LOL if according to lore Dwarf are magic resistant) )

0.245dps reduction for BO (obviously the toughest skin)

Yes the highest for BO and why? According to lore BO doesn’t any pain because their skins are hard as hell, therefore making them the toughest.  Also this fits well for the BO since they orcs have great self regeneration aspect, so it fits in perfectly when, later Mythic implant the secondary stat system.

Strength

Again, strength for all classes increases the same and does not distinguish from archetype and classes. 

0.22 skill dps increase for KOTBS

0.225 skill dps increase for SM

0.23 skill dps increase for BG

0.235 skill dps increase for Chosen

0.245 skill dps increase for IB and BO

Weapon skill

Weapon skill will be lower than the standard compared to others because I think this is where the MDPS should dominate. 

0.19 for BO (cause we are dum and rather just take the hit then block a hit with weapon)

0.195 for IB

0.20 for Chosen

0.205 for KOTBS

0.21 for BG

0.215 for SM

Resistance

I am not sure the calculation for resistance but it should be something like this

KOTBS = Chosen < BO = IB < BG = SM

Note when I say greater than and less than I am talking about value deviations like 0.1<0.15<0.2 something like that

Wounds

Didn’t check wounds rate either but should look something like this

SM = BG <KOTBS < Chosen < IB = BO

Intel and will power

Not really going to go here since is not major stat tank uses but the rate increase for intel should be low for tanks and willpower should be medium

Armour

This is the item I am talking about, ie, an the stats for the end game item for each tank class should be different.

BG = KOTBS < Chosen = BM < IB = BO

General

Will have the worst CC in the game, 1 silence, 1 root, 1 snare, 1 pityful punt and … I think that’s it for the core CC.  We got a knockdown from the brawer tree (6 points or 9 points?), nothing in toughest and nothing in Boss. 

Mechanics

The mechanics are pure crap as all others have said earlier, is lame and hinders the performance.  First of all it should be called the Boss plan since all BO wants to be Boss, and if there is no plan in changing the plan system, please gives some bonus when in are in certain plan.  Something like increase AP regen or increase self heal rate. 

Skill Trees

For god sakes Mythic, add some creativity to the skill tree make it so it would benefit stats and make the toon unique.  As someone had mention and using BO as an example there are total 15 points in a skill tree and each point you invent in only increase the effectiveness/dmg of the specific skill.  Why not add duration and cool down too?  So the more you invest in the long duration of particular skill say 0.1 – 0.2 sec increase duration and 0.05 – 0.1 sec reduce cool down time?  I think those numbers are fair consider say using saving me hide instead of 4 sec reduced magic dmg and increasing toughness for 20 seconds, with a 15 points in the tree (using 0.1 and 0.05) that make 5.5 secs reduced magic dmg and 0.75 sec (close to 1 sec) reduced cool down.  Obviously these number are rough but Mythic can work it out, what matter is the idea to allow players to feel their toon is unique. 

Toughest tree

Suggest that it also increase toughness, black % and magic resistance by 1/3 of a percent for each point invested.  So in the end people who invest 15 points in Toughest can receive extra 5 added on to resistance and added 5 of toughness. For resistance it will be just added percent not percent of existing resistance i.e. original elemental 40% mitigation after bonus will be 45% elemental mitigation.  For toughness a typical BO say 500-600 (conservatively) that will give bonus of around 25 – 30 toughness, couple with what the number I proposed earlier of 0.254 dps reduction for BO, that’s around 6.125 – 7.35, which I think is fair to display BO toughness for specing into this tree.

The tactics in this skill tree is actually pretty good and represents the defensive theme of BO.

The skills that nee to invest in toughest tree includes, can’t hit me, ya missed me and not in da face.  The goods in this tree is can’t hit me and ya missed me, would like ya missed me with knock down effect, heck I don’t even care if the 30% physical dmg reduction is gone since when does BW, SM hits me with physical dmg, I mean, we used a shield to whack ppl with this, have you watch 300 Mythic? A shield attack like that should send the opponent flying to the ground and we are talking about big bad black orcs here.  For not in da face, the skill seems out of place and should be in the brawler tree, would suggest making it a stun attack for 5 sec and removes 20-30 AP since we are hitting their face.  Would suggest add in a group shield type skill namely stealing rock hard form the boss tree and replace not in da face.  However this shield is unique in a way that it actually uses the blocking rate of the BO acting like a shield for your group for 3-5 secs and of course you have to be in front of your group just like hold the line, maybe add it as an passive skill and can be couple with can’t hit me?

Some solid feedback fellas keep it coming. Let's compile a laundry list of changes that need to be made.

1.Bellows need reworking, I mean all of them

2.Morals.

3.Plan mechanic

4.sword and shield knockdown

5.armor buffs need to either stack or changed entirely

6.some way of closing the gap.

7.absorb or heal do something just make it worthwile

I would say more shield-specific abilities in general. Something along the lines of Shield of Reprisal and Shield Sweep which Ironbreakers get (one of which is a knockdown, which we sorely need). I think it would make sense to stick those in the Toughness tree so we could spec into them (i.e. don't make them general class abilities like they are for dwarves).

And I would raise the toughness/wounds cap for tanks in general.

Y'know, they need to really get creative with our Black Orcs.  And I mean really, REALLY, REALLY creative!!!  Ok, so here is my idea that may just make our class fun again to play.

"The Black Orc's fighting style might best be described as brawling. He attacks with all the tools available – fists, feet, elbows, shoulders, and assorted other spiky bits, including weapons. His various attacks are designed to jar, disorient, or otherwise disable his enemy." -Taken straight from the webpage.

What would be the thing to do is totally redo our combat system.  NO PLAN!!! 

Think of it this way.  Have you ever gotten into a fight?  A really nasty fight where your nose got bloodied, your shirt got torn and you got a knot on your head?!??

I have, several times as a kid.  There is no rules to a school yard fight or a knock down bar brawl for that matter!  (I was in the U.S. Navy, had some of these types of fights too! Hah!)

What needs to transpire here is more of a fluid system, no plans.  Have a skill that we can grab a rock and use it to bash a head, or break someones nose.  Yea, we can kick them in the 'junk' which is on the right track.  But I'm talking about getting them in a choke hold, gouge out an eye have that be a blinding attack.  Grab your sword and go for bleed effects.  Hamstring them, kick out thier knees sideways, break bones, smash fingers to disarm, use your shield for an AoE round house to knock back or drop them to the ground, throw dirt in the eyes, Orcs have HUGE tusks on thier faces BITE someone, how about a nasty head-butt with that fully armored head!!!  If the Black Orc isn't going to fight dirty they may aswell color them pink and let us just run around the field and pick flowers.  Or just call this waffle WoW2 and be done with it!!!!!!

Look, it says in the D A M N description that the Black Orc is supposed to fight dirty!!!!  So make a new combat system where they can do just that FIGHT DIRTY !!!!

C'mon Mythic, listen to us for a bit, we love the game, we love our class.  We just want to play them as they should be played, as they should have been built in the first place!

So long and thanks for all the fish!

Here I come squig herder.

Please read this thread, as we've also had a disussion here about a black orcs lack of usefulness in rvr.

 http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=greenskin_bo&message.id=823#M823

I'll restate here what I said there, and if there is any confusion about the context of it, please feel free to refer to the other thread. 

A few points about the BO

Can't Hit Me is underrated, but maybe to make it useful to rvr, make it a backwards conal effec or affects guarded target as well. Haha, buy a tactic called Can't Hit Us 

Da' Biggest is working great

Right in da jibblies- Not really useful now, may be more useful after stat changes. Would rather see it as a stun or disarm though. Seriously, how do most of us act when we get kicked in the nuts? We're incapacitated for a period of time.

Our armor- Itemization is not really up to par. Need more armor with innate magic resistance

The party buffs from Da' Best Plan moves like Savin Me Hide and Not in da Face are a good start. Lengthen the duration of the party buffs and now we're talking. That would be a step in the right direction of making people fear a black orc. Seeing one on the field and knowing that along with immunity timers triggered from their cc's, that the Black Orc will be able to trigger an immunity timer every 20s for 10s as well would make us more useful/a pain in the butt.  Also, with extending the timer on the magic damage reduction buff, that would have the same effect of making the enemy pay attention to us. 

Trip em up is great

Challenge is great

Guard has a lot of potential, but his highly situational in practical application.

Taunt is useless for rvr tanking except for disrupting channeled spells

Wot Armor- nerfed. We used to be able to reduce a tanks armor by almost 70ish% IF we could apply the debuff 5 times AND keep it stacked. Now it's a static number that just tickles a tanks. 

Clobber-useless in rvr and don't even mention the tactic.

Most black orcs right now are specced 2h and running around getting melted. If they aren't getting melted then they have a strong support of healers, but you know what? That means something is fundamentally wrong as well. As a heavy tank class, we shouldn't require a battery of healers to keep us alive while we pretend to dps. That's for the Witch Elves, Mauraders, and Choppas to do.

We really don't have an option on tanking in rvr at the moment. We can't really stack resistances, we aren't innately resistant to anything but spiritual (and that's slotting a tactic). our ground control is 1 aoe root every 60s, 1 single target snare. If you use a mastery point and slot the tactics, you can get 1 kd out of the brawler tree and 1 aoe snare out of da boss tree, but the split is so big that most orcs will only be able to go one way or the other. Plus those are completely out of the tanking line. 

I hear alot of folks talking about if this toughness hp regen mechanic goes into affect that they will look into stackign toughness. That's all fine and dandy, but I'm worried it will just be a band-aid fix for our survivability, while our actual usefullness on the battlefield will still be on the back burner. 

I like what you have to say even though I don't really agree with it.  I think they should just dump our combat system in the toilet with the rest of the dump they took on the Black Orc and flush it! 

We need a new system, one that works, one that is what they have stated the Black Orc is supposed to be.  A low down, mean, strong, nastiest of the Orcs dirty fighter.  Nothing we have except Right in Da Jibblies is a low down or dirty tactic for fighting.  Make us want to play our Black Orcs again.  Right now with how it is set up there is no need.  We can all be meatbags and sit there and take a beating but that isn't what Mythic has said the Black Orc is supposed to be, and that is also not what Games Workshop has said the Black Orc is either. 

At this rate it will be all Choppa's running around and then they can change the name of the Black Orc to something else then implement that into the game since Black Orcs are not needed, and offer nothing to ORvR.

Grumpy does have a point.  I think the initial intent of the combo system was to give the BO and SM an unique feel that seperated them from previous tank incarnations from other games as well as to diversify the tank options in WAR.  Indeed all of the class pairs have some  sort of a gimmick mechanic to give them a "fresh" take from other games.  For the most part Mythic has done an excellent job implimenting a fresh look for all of the core roles be it tank, mdps, rdps or support.  I don't believe they will scrap the combo system, as imho, they have invested to much into it.  Like it, love it, or hate it, it is our cross to bear.  I still hope they retool it by either bolstering current abilities (i.e. remove cooldowns) or allowing greater access to abilities betwixt the stages (stage 1 always available, stage 2 always available, even if another stage 2 ablility is used, and stage 3 resets to stage 1).  Stage 1 abilities need to have more utilities such as snare while stage 3 abilities need to be spectacular in order to justify the time and effort it takes to reach them as well as resetting to stage 1.

What I want from Mythic is to make the Black Orc back into a tank.  We don't do the high dmg that a mdps does nor should we.  According to lore, we should be the hardest, toughest toon on the rvr field.  People shouldn't fear us because we can kill them with high or continual streams of damage.  They should fear us simply because we can outlast them, and like the ocean upon the shore, wear them down and defeat them.  BOs should be the toon that rushes the support line, not really posting the high dmg or kills,and wreaks havoc.  In the midst of this, the other classes should be fulfilling their roles: dps doing the majority of the kills/dmg while support keeps all of the mayhem going.  To fulfill this envisioned role, I believe we need more durability (either healing or dmg shields) as well as abilities that are not only useful but mesh together (stacking or complimenting eachother).  We sorely need abilities like stuns, knockdowns, and disarms.  I'd like to have more abilities that represent dirty fighting such as a group snare or knockdown. Using these, we could isolate a target and begin the task of wearing them down.   We have an ability thats function is ideal for long, protracted engagements: Arm Breaka'.  To slowly eat away at an opponents action points while stubbornly refusing to die is the vibe that I am after.  Dots are another viable and attractive tool that we are missing.  Anyone who has seen the durability of an IB has the feel of what I envision.  I am not saying that I want the devs to make the BO into the best toon, I just want them to make it an equal toon.  After all, its the competion that makes the game entertaining.  Outside of PVE, I feel that we are lacking.

In regards to Grumpy's post #18, Amen! especially to the latter part.  Growing up asian down in South Kakalakee (SC in northern parlance) I've been through a scrap or to myself.  All I can really say is waffle Ted Turner and his superstation TBS channel for continually showing reruns of Rambo and Missing In Action.  I'm not even Vietnamese (I'm a Flip (filipino)) and having to contend with the whole asian idenity ambiguity was a chore.  Oh well, at least I wasn't a Native American growing up in the Wild West tv show heyday of the fifties.  waffle I'd wager they had it rough!   Hopefully we'll have a toon that will live up to the good ole days of our rough and tumble youth, if Mythic listens that is.

Just to bump and food for thought.

why doesn't da biggest steal wounds as well. Most other tanks have a -100 some odd wound debuff why not on our stat bellow

1.make snare an out of plan ability.

2.knockdown usable with shield and decent attack range like 15-20 feet?

3.A  3600 absorption shield rank 1? similiar to choppas and kotbs

4. Thrown weapons to do weapon dmaage and able to crit.

5. rock ard to be used without target.