well, figgured it had to happen sometime.

incoming marauder 2.0

killed the demo marauder, finally built me a new ae class, now reductions incoming.

lets hope this isnt as radical as most reductions are.

This is good to see, and addresses many of the issues that I have posted in the Choppa Bugs and Issues thread. It is also good to see these changes before they are release, and can't wait to see the details of the changes. Specifics would be more helpful than vagueness, but we will take what we can get

The single target attacks definitely need/needed tweaking, and it is good to see them getting put back in line.

Though, I don't know if boosting all the single target stuff and nerfing the AOE stuff is a great plan. If you do too much, you will make the AOE tree worthless. So lets hope they are not "dramatically" doing anything. Or it will again, make certain masteries worse than others.

I think Hitta and Savage need some love, like maybe a 15-25% increase in damage. That or AOE needs a reduction in damage (which should happen across the board, for all classes). AOE's should only be effective when you are hitting 3 or more players, IMO. Currently, they are massively more effective when you are hitting just 2 players (and if you are spec'd 100% in Wrecka, AOE's are better than any attack you have, even single target).

Anyways, lets hope the Wrecka path doesn't get totally wrecked. Thanks for the heads up, Adam!

I think it is about time you set the record straight Adam for the community and your own credibility. The incoming AoE nerf sounds like it will for the most part neuter the initially designed role of Choppas/Slayers. What are the roles of Choppas supposed to be and how are they suppose to compare to Marauders? Originally the Choppa was billed as a linebreaker and I'd say the only line breaking abilities are found in Da Wrecka tree. I've also heard out of the mouth of a Mythic employee to paraphrase that they are just another mdps, which I assume is due to the linebreaking notion not working too well. If you disagree, I'd like to know what you believe makes a Savage or Hitta a linebreaker in comparison to Marauders. The other two trees are simply single target trees with utility built into most abilities.

Marauders are well known to be in a pretty dire state, if you disagree that is fine, and let's say that you guys get them up to where they should be in 1.3. What does that mean for Choppas? You either have to give one group specific utility no others have, make one a major support role across the board, or make one an even higher damage role.

Akkuma, you're forgetting a very important point: AoE healing is also being nerfed. I imagine that AoE damage will sitll be a very important part of the game, but it will no longer take the place of direct damage (as things should be).

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Tozen wrote:

Akkuma, you're forgetting a very important point: AoE healing is also being nerfed. I imagine that AoE damage will sitll be a very important part of the game, but it will no longer take the place of direct damage (as things should be).

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AoE healing is not being nerfed for the most part. Go ahead and take a look in the forums: Mastery -line AoE heals (Pious Restoration, Martyr's Blessing, etc.) have had their healing values improved. Looks like a buff to me.

Group healing abilities have had their effective radius reduced. Healers will still be able to cast group heals from a far greater distance then AoE damage, but not from the same distance as their direct healing spells. Looks like a debuff that means so little that they may as well not have bothered.

I'm very happy with the upcomeing changes.

And for Mr. Cranky Pants LotD, last time I checked coppas we're the only MDPS class that can up their dps by %50 for as long as they want (not counting the slayer).

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steep wrote:

I'm very happy with the upcomeing changes.

 

And for Mr. Cranky Pants LotD, last time I checked coppas we're the only MDPS class that can up their dps by %50 for as long as they want (not counting the slayer).

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And for Mr. I Don't Know How The Classes Were Designed, last time I checked they said that 50% damage increase was to give us the dps of Witch Elves and the 25% was to give us dps of a Marauder. Oh ya, forgot that you have the armor of a Witch Elf and lower resists than one when you're in the red, right?

Personally, I can't wait for the coppas class to come in, cause we all know how op the burglars will be.

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Akkuma wrote:

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Tozen wrote:

Akkuma, you're forgetting a very important point: AoE healing is also being nerfed. I imagine that AoE damage will sitll be a very important part of the game, but it will no longer take the place of direct damage (as things should be).

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AoE healing is not being nerfed for the most part. Go ahead and take a look in the forums: Mastery -line AoE heals (Pious Restoration, Martyr's Blessing, etc.) have had their healing values improved. Looks like a buff to me.

 

Group healing abilities have had their effective radius reduced. Healers will still be able to cast group heals from a far greater distance then AoE damage, but not from the same distance as their direct healing spells. Looks like a debuff that means so little that they may as well not have bothered.

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They were also talking about how one of their main group heals is getting changed to a 2.5s cast time. I don't know much about WP/DoK's except that they are hard to kill. But I can agree with what others have said, if all AOE is reduced by the same amount, the AOE tree should still be effective.

Right now, there is just far too much AOE damage and AOE healing in the game. I just hope they don't go too far by: 1) boosting single target abilities, 2) increasing damage from STR/INT to higher damage abilities (which means, increases damage of single target abilities more than AOE ones), and 3) reducing the damage/effectiveness of AOE globally.

Those 3 changes stacked on top of eachother might be too large a blow to AOE, but we shall see. Even then, I would prefer more single target damage over the rampant AOE spam kills that are happening now. I think AOE damage should be large, but it should also cost much more AP (like every other MMO on the face of the planet). The risk vs. reward just isn't enough.

Your comment on line breaking I thought was very interesting. It would be nice if the Wrecka tree got some line breaking/utility effects added to some abilities or something. As right now, Wrecka really has none of that except pure damage (besides the AOE snare and GTDC pull). But maybe something that could pierce through tank walls or blow small holes in the walls or something? That could be cool.

We will see how the changes pan out, I just hope, again, that nothing happens too dramatic with the AOE tree ... or it will be garbage. 

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Azgrum wrote:

They were also talking about how one of their main group heals is getting changed to a 2.5s cast time. I don't know much about WP/DoK's except that they are hard to kill. But I can agree with what others have said, if all AOE is reduced by the same amount, the AOE tree should still be effective.

 

Right now, there is just far too much AOE damage and AOE healing in the game. I just hope they don't go too far by: 1) boosting single target abilities, 2) increasing damage from STR/INT to higher damage abilities (which means, increases damage of single target abilities more than AOE ones), and 3) reducing the damage/effectiveness of AOE globally.

 

Those 3 changes stacked on top of eachother might be too large a blow to AOE, but we shall see. Even then, I would prefer more single target damage over the rampant AOE spam kills that are happening now. I think AOE damage should be large, but it should also cost much more AP (like every other MMO on the face of the planet). The risk vs. reward just isn't enough.

 

Your comment on line breaking I thought was very interesting. It would be nice if the Wrecka tree got some line breaking/utility effects added to some abilities or something. As right now, Wrecka really has none of that except pure damage (besides the AOE snare and GTDC pull). But maybe something that could pierce through tank walls or blow small holes in the walls or something? That could be cool.

 

We will see how the changes pan out, I just hope, again, that nothing happens too dramatic with the AOE tree ... or it will be garbage. 

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Forgot they are adding an extra second onto the DoK/WP group heals, so yes that will hurt, but I think it won't overall. They are also buffing healing if you have average to high willpower.

I agree there is too much AoE. In fact, my solution to their problem is redesigning their careers. If they said Choppas/Slayer, Sorcs/BWs are the only two classes on each side with AoE damage we wouldn't be in this predicament where everyone and their mom is tossing out AoE of some sort. The next step would have been to make DoKs/WPs the group healers, but Shamans/AMs and Zealots/RPs the single target healers and buffers. The tanks would have had AoE CC, WE/WH would have single target CC/DPS, and WL/Marauders would become more of an off-tank and mirror tanks in that instead of 2 out of 3 focused on defense and 1 for offense, 2 out 3 trees would be focused on offense and 1 on defense.

Right now I am fairly certain AoE will be mostly dead as healing across the board will be better, which will make the PvE dungeons even easier. The upside to this situation is that a lot of classes are facing this same problem.

My linebreaking comment was really about Savage/Hitta as single target utility/effects are not unique to Choppas/Slayers at all, so to me are not linebreaking. Personally, what I wanted to see was not necessarily a damage monster, but a AoE utility monster. AoE debuffs, AoE buffs, some AoE damage. You know things that effect an entire line and breaks em.

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Akkuma wrote:

Forgot they are adding an extra second onto the DoK/WP group heals, so yes that will hurt, but I think it won't overall. They are also buffing healing if you have average to high willpower.

 

I agree there is too much AoE. In fact, my solution to their problem is redesigning their careers. If they said Choppas/Slayer, Sorcs/BWs are the only two classes on each side with AoE damage we wouldn't be in this predicament where everyone and their mom is tossing out AoE of some sort. The next step would have been to make DoKs/WPs the group healers, but Shamans/AMs and Zealots/RPs the single target healers and buffers. The tanks would have had AoE CC, WE/WH would have single target CC/DPS, and WL/Marauders would become more of an off-tank and mirror tanks in that instead of 2 out of 3 focused on defense and 1 for offense, 2 out 3 trees would be focused on offense and 1 on defense.

 

Right now I am fairly certain AoE will be mostly dead as healing across the board will be better, which will make the PvE dungeons even easier. The upside to this situation is that a lot of classes are facing this same problem.

 

My linebreaking comment was really about Savage/Hitta as single target utility/effects are not unique to Choppas/Slayers at all, so to me are not linebreaking. Personally, what I wanted to see was not necessarily a damage monster, but a AoE utility monster. AoE debuffs, AoE buffs, some AoE damage. You know things that effect an entire line and breaks em.

Message Edited by Akkuma on 05-14-2009 04:25 PM

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Yea, we shall see how it goes. I was not around for the talk about what Choppa/Slayers were supposed to be. I played in the closed beta, and once they decided to remove Choppas and not put them in at release, that was it for me. I finished out beta, testing with a BO/Shaman/Engineer and then didn't buy the game until about a month ago, when the class I wanted to play the entire time (the Choppa) was released.

The Choppa has quite a few AOE buffs (but some are broken), and it would indeed be nice to have these increased and be more of an AOE focused melee class. But like you were saying, it would require a total redesign of classes, which I don't see happening. And yes, if AOE healing is not toned down in some way, we will not be able to kill anything with the AOE tree.

I do have one question, (if Adam is still around ). What kind of % boost are we talking about to single target abilities, and what kind of % reduction in AOE abilities are we looking at overall (for Choppas specifically)?

Well I for one am not happy to see another nerf to the Choppa.  I am a very casual gamer as of now (2 year old) and I'm just disappointed that another AoE toon I chose to play and level is being nerfed.  I am not a one button hitting wonder, I had a few multiple high RR melee chars in DAOC that required chains and directionals, but I just really liked the concept of the insane paper choppa.  I guess I made a mistake rolling 2 classes (sorc and Chop) who either put them selves at higher risk or even hurt themselves in a tradeoff to do more damage.

Just a bit of bait and switch Mythic.  Please stop using us to beta test your products. In the old days we got percs for beta testing now we pay you to let us test so it your "product" gets to market faster.

I guess I just need to roll a waffle tank BO or BG.

Spellbreaker > No more helpin

Deep wounds > No more helpin

Shatter limbs > Tired already

Devestate > Tired already

Devestate > No more helpin

Hmmmm think i see a correlation here..... Choppa 2hander spec needs to be completly reworked not just abilities improved. If choppa doesnt have a spammable exhaustive blow in 1.3 then it will remain a completely pointless mastery

To the choppa still complaining about WP AOE healing. Cast time on TotD(the main AOE heal) is now 2.5 seconds and RF regen on books is getting toned down.

While I agree with lowering the damage on AoEs, I think that it is a big mistake in lowering their range.  Melee DPS *needs* melee attacks with some reach to deal with kiting and "target out of range" situations.

And, nerfing the range on our AoE Detaunt?  Are you serious?   How can you possibly justify that?

It seems to me that you just took everything "AoE" and nerfed not only it's effect, but it's range giving zero consideration as to how the ability is actually balanced with respect to the game.

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Rimarlk wrote:

To the choppa still complaining about WP AOE healing. Cast time on TotD(the main AOE heal) is now 2.5 seconds and RF regen on books is getting toned down.

 

 

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Point out where I was complaining about WP AoE healing. Hmmm, that's right you won't find it, because I never complained about healing being over the top.

The Choppa's and Slayer's role is AoE DPS.  That's how the classes were pitched to the community and how they were implemented into the game.  WIth an overall reduction to the effectiveness of AoE abilities, the Choppa and Slayer are effectively having their entire role reduced.  We're not seeing this broad a change to any other class and should not see this type of change to any class - ever.

This is reminiscent of a DAOC "adjustment" and I think it's going to be too extreme.  You simply can not make such extreme changes to a game and expect it not to have repercussions.  

The problem, of course, is not a single Choppa AOEing.  It's a stupid AOE train of Choppas who don't even have to do something as basic as ASSIST to mow down groups of people.

Zero skill = zero entertainment.

This goes for all AoE that is hitting for the same as, if not more than, single target damage.