Adam, I don't expect this news to be well recieved. These changes are expected by most classes, sure, but the Shadow Warrior class has been underperforming since beta and are now going to be tuned down by being clumped in with other far more effective classes.

Shadow Warriors are already hurting in terms of damage output and tuning down their AoE damage any further, I believe, many will give up on the class.

As with everything else, testing will be in order.

A few questions though:

1) What do you qualify as High base damage and Low base damage in terms of how ballistics will adjust their scores?

2) How will the AE changes effect Spiral Fletched Arrow which is a single target attack that becomes AE with a tactic?

3) What PBAoE ability are you speaking of for Shadow Warrior? Whirling Pin?

---

Taldren wrote:

Adam, I don't expect this news to be well recieved. These changes are expected by most classes, sure, but the Shadow Warrior class has been underperforming since beta and are now going to be tuned down by being clumped in with other far more effective classes.

 

Shadow Warriors are already hurting in terms of damage output and tuning down their AoE damage any further I think many will give up on the class.

 

 

---

How is more damage in scout and skirmish a bad thing? AoE is being toned down everywhere which most likely means SW will be able to live longer than they currently can. Who knows, they may even change the ranged knockdown range on Chosen/KotBS to be less than 65 ft.

Also the damage stat scaling based on tooltip is interesting. Festering Arrow has a high tooltip value, i wonder how much it'll get from stats. Plus Shadow Warriors have higher tooltip values than Squig Herders so it might close the damage gap a bit.

Also the bit about bringing abilities in line with your "mirror." That could mean many things because a lot of SH/SW abilities are pretty evenly mirrored... unless they mean giving you new abilities, which I suppose is possible.

Four path abilities that are mirrors and fairly close are Flanking Shot, Festering Arrow, Glass Arrow and Fell the Weak and... well, flanking, festering and fell are all better on SW where as glass arrow would get a slight bump in range. So i really wonder what they mean about bringing abilities in line. Perhaps 1 sec eagle eye and/or skirmish range increase?

edit: oops, meant to say your flanking is worse, as SH one is instant. So that'd be a boost there

Greetings,

As many of you are aware, WAR's 1.3 patch is rapidly approaching! Before we open up the Public Test Server and release the patch notes, we wanted to sit down with each career's community and give them a rough idea of what to expect from 1.3.

Patch 1.3's major balance changes focus on the balancing of direct damage vs. area-of-effect abilities.   All careers should expect to see AoE effectiveness reduced across the board. This reduction can come in a change to damage/healing, AP cost, or effect radius, and will vary from ability to ability.

MDPS careers will gain some additional focus in 1.3, revolving around the relationship between direct damage, situational damage, and area-of-effect damage. While many of the more potent AoE abilities have been reduced, many of the situational damage and direct damage abilities have been improved. This should greatly improve the MDPS careers' ability to rapidly overcome a single target when they set themselves up properly.

Marauders continue to be the focus of adjustments based on overall DPS output and utility. Below is a list of some of the items included in 1.3.

• Bonus damage from Strength will now have a much greater effect on abilities with high base damage, but a reduced effect on abilities with low base damage.

• Gift of Brutality, Monstrosity, and Savagery will all gain specialty bonuses that will help the marauder excel in different situations.

• Numerous abilities in the Savagery and Brutality Mastery Paths have had their effects improved to better encourage use of these specialties.

• Numerous positional and situational abilities have had their effects greatly increased.

• We have adjusted or improved the effect of some underused Tactics, such as Rend Asunder.

• "Barb" abilities will now once again gain a small amount of bonus damage from stats.

Marauders will also see a number of AoE adjustments including, but not limited to, the following:

• Many AoE abilities have had their effective radius reduced, returning their radius to pre-1.2.1 patch values.

• A number of conical-area-of-effect melee abilities have been adjusted to a new standard melee CAoE. Range has been reduced but the arc of effect has been greatly increased. This will allow the character to more easily lash out at nearby targets without granting the career excessive range.

• A number of AoE abilities have been reduced in effectiveness through reductions in damage, or increase in AP cost/cooldown.

Finally, we are investigating the following items that will potentially be added into 1.3 during the PTS phase, or in a patch soon after

• Allowing mutations to summon more appropriate weapons for the offhand based on player level and current main hand weapon.

• Minor ability shuffles between Mastery Paths to better define the role of each path. For example, moving Thunderous Blow to a direct-effect line in exchange for an AoE ability from Brutality or Savagery.

• Further adjustments to which abilities are restricted based on specific "Gifts."

OK now from reading these notes there stances will be given more bonuses... AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO USE MORE ATTACKS ACROSS STANCES... where is the SW love like that?

Look I know it all comes down to the numbers on test server but to get many SW to come back to this lack luster class (compared to most of the rest of the classes) we need the SAME DPS as Squig herders get WITH PET!   Or this is all for naught.  SH just plain out DPS us without pet and even more with a pet.. on top of being able to use any attack at any time.. no stance dancing... and get rid of the +crit tactic in skirmish and put in the + range one SH get.. I know my SH is a god with that tactic and all the other bonuses they have over SW.

This better be one heck of a good patch for SW or you will prob lose alot more playing SW to alts or will move to dest like I have and played a real archer class in the SH.  Because if we get -- much love while all the other classes get ---------- much love we are still behind the curve.. we need about 2x as much love as any other class in this patch to bring us up to par. 

All of the above is a fact and is not a attack.  It is letting you know what needs to be done to the lowest performing class in this game.

As many of you are aware, WAR's 1.3 patch is rapidly approaching! Before we open up the Public Test Server and release the patch notes, we wanted to sit down with each career's community and give them a rough idea of what to expect from 1.3.

Patch 1.3's major balance changes focus on the balancing of direct damage vs. area-of-effect abilities.   All careers should expect to see AoE effectiveness reduced across the board. This reduction can come in a change to damage/healing, AP cost, or effect radius, and will vary from ability to ability.

MDPS careers will gain some additional focus in 1.3, revolving around the relationship between direct damage, situational damage, and area-of-effect damage. While many of the more potent AoE abilities have been reduced, many of the situational damage and direct damage abilities have been improved. This should greatly improve the MDPS careers' ability to rapidly overcome a single target when they set themselves up properly.

Marauders continue to be the focus of adjustments based on overall DPS output and utility. Below is a list of some of the items included in 1.3.

• Bonus damage from Strength will now have a much greater effect on abilities with high base damage, but a reduced effect on abilities with low base damage.

• Gift of Brutality, Monstrosity, and Savagery will all gain specialty bonuses that will help the marauder excel in different situations.

• Numerous abilities in the Savagery and Brutality Mastery Paths have had their effects improved to better encourage use of these specialties.

• Numerous positional and situational abilities have had their effects greatly increased.

• We have adjusted or improved the effect of some underused Tactics, such as Rend Asunder.

• "Barb" abilities will now once again gain a small amount of bonus damage from stats.

Marauders will also see a number of AoE adjustments including, but not limited to, the following:

• Many AoE abilities have had their effective radius reduced, returning their radius to pre-1.2.1 patch values.

• A number of conical-area-of-effect melee abilities have been adjusted to a new standard melee CAoE. Range has been reduced but the arc of effect has been greatly increased. This will allow the character to more easily lash out at nearby targets without granting the career excessive range.

• A number of AoE abilities have been reduced in effectiveness through reductions in damage, or increase in AP cost/cooldown.

Finally, we are investigating the following items that will potentially be added into 1.3 during the PTS phase, or in a patch soon after

• Allowing mutations to summon more appropriate weapons for the offhand based on player level and current main hand weapon.

• Minor ability shuffles between Mastery Paths to better define the role of each path. For example, moving Thunderous Blow to a direct-effect line in exchange for an AoE ability from Brutality or Savagery.

• Further adjustments to which abilities are restricted based on specific "Gifts."

Ya know, if you're really shooting for just enough to keep Shadow Warriors from canceling, but not actually buffing them, you should just fix the Stance Bug where you accidently click the wrong stance and go stanceless, losing the ability to use half your attacks for 5 seconds.

That's harmless enough, though saw no mention of that. 

I'm so glad I'm not leveling this guy anymore. 

Treberto, please play a shadow warrior and you will figure it out.

Damage is not the issue with Scout or Assault and as the only damage Skirmish has also is AoE I don't forsee the changed being very helpful.

---

Taldren wrote:

Adam, I don't expect this news to be well recieved. These changes are expected by most classes, sure, but the Shadow Warrior class has been underperforming since beta and are now going to be tuned down by being clumped in with other far more effective classes.

 

Shadow Warriors are already hurting in terms of damage output and tuning down their AoE damage any further, I believe, many will give up on the class.

 

As with everything else, testing will be in order.

 

A few questions though:

 

1) What do you qualify as High base damage and Low base damage in terms of how ballistics will adjust their scores?

2) How will the AE changes effect Spiral Fletched Arrow which is a single target attack that becomes AE with a tactic?

3) What PBAoE ability are you speaking of for Shadow Warrior? Whirling Pin?

 

Message Edited by Taldren on 05-14-2009 05:27 PM

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Look at it like this, At least SW aren't being nerfed like Blackguards.

---

Quartztooth wrote:
I wonder if SW's will get the increased ranged tactic that SH's have since Magus are getting it to match the Engineer?I

---

I just copied this from my other post made earlier today regarding the same issue cause I'm too lazy to type it out again.

Those SWs asking for a Shootin Wif Da Wind tactic are smoking crack. If they can't see the problem with SWs doing 30% more damage while keeping their Scout stance (50% more with VoN), having Takedown + Keen Arrowheads (15s/15cd permasnare) at 98ft, a 98ft ranged knockdown in Takedown + VoN, Unmitigated Festering Arrow with Enchanted Arrows, two ways of increasing their critical strike rate with Steady Aim and Bullseye (2s extra cast time for a guaranteed critical means jack when you have a 98ft permasnare), and an instacast Fell The Weak, then I want some of what they're smoking.

Just imagine how annoying a Squig Herder would be if they changed our snare from a 10s/20cd (15s/20cd with tactic) to a 20s/20cd snare. Now imagine a Squig Herder that hits for 30-50% more damage, isn't gimped by a pet, has an unmitigated source of damage, 15s/15cd permasnare, 3-5s ranged knockdown, and 50-70% increased critical strike chance and you'd have a Shadow Warrior if they gave them our Shootin' Wif Da Wind tactic. If you're thinking that sounds overpowered, you're exactly right.

Squig Herders are given a range advantage because we deal 30%-50% less damage, have significantly less burst damage potential, do not have a permasnare, do not have ANY critical strike boosting abilities, and have to deal with the hassle of a pet.

If SWs do get a SWDW/Throwing Arm tactic it's game over for every single other class in the game.

Your craping me.. if Magus get that tactic and SW dont... it just proves mythic is brain dead when it comes to SW or one of the devs just hates this class... not like we need more more evidence of that after they way they have made SH into gods compared to SW right now.

What a joke.  This patch has to be big! Not some minor help while they super buff a few classes that really dont need it but are on the right devs minds.

Call me a tin foil hat guy.. but really look at what has been the SW compared to the rest of the classes and tell me with a straight face that this class has been straight out ignored since release compared to ever other class that had problems.

Schnoz, please keep your misinformation to your classes boards.

SH pets are amazing right now, could be considered OP actually and SH are doing far more damage then SWs currently.

Majority of SW do NOT use Keen Arrowheads -or- Charge Forth! in T4 RvR. Using then as an excuse for a range advantage is ridiculous.

Man your just smoking crack.... SH do not do any less damage then a SW... All I see is a SH who is afraid of a even level of power with his opposition ... your a joke to your class and to humanity as a whole spouting such bull crap.

Your class is rideing the high horse and we as SW are eating crap.. and you dont want us riding the same horse you are... sorry man but you need a ban from the boards for the load of crap you just laid out....... you have no reason to be on these boards other then to scream..."nooooooo noooooooooo leave SW in the pile of crap they are in because I dont want my competition to accually be as powerfull as me and I will post on there boards all day to try and stop it"...

Get a life and get off the SW boards.. if not I hope the devs give you a 3 day break from the boards AND A WARNING FOR A PERMA BAN IF YOU COME BACK SPUING LIES LIKE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW!!

One time, in a Scenario without heals, I actually got soloed by a Squig Herder's pet.

I know it was only T2, but lemme tell ya... that sorta put things in perspective. 

How is anything I said a lie.  Your baseline spells don't do ~30% more damage than ours?  Your stances don't grant you 80-120 additional stat bonuses that we don't get?  You don't have a permasnare in Takedown + Keen Arrowheads?  You don't have Steady Aim (50% crit), Bullseye (20% crit), Charge Forth(20% crit)?  You don't have Vegeance of the Naragythe?  You don't have Enchanting Arrows + Festering Arrow?  You don't have a ranged 5s knockdown in Takedown + Keen Arrowheads + VoN?  You don't have an instant cast finisher in Fell the Weak that we don't?

Do you really think us having a squig pet will make up for all those things if you get Shootin' Wif Da Wind?  Really?  Seriously?

Folks,

There is lots of exciting information coming with 1.3 and if people continue to turn these Dev Discussion threads intoback and forth flame wars, those users will have their Dev Discussion privileges removed. Let's keep civil please. Thanks.

Max Morrison
Community Moderator
Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning

---

Schnoz wrote:

How is anything I said a lie.  Your baseline spells don't do ~30% more damage than ours?  Your stances don't grant you 80-120 additional stat bonuses that we don't get?  You don't have a permasnare in Takedown + Keen Arrowheads?  You don't have Steady Aim (50% crit), Bullseye (20% crit), Charge Forth(20% crit)?  You don't have Vegeance of the Naragythe?  You don't have Enchanting Arrows + Festering Arrow?  You don't have a ranged 5s knockdown in Takedown + Keen Arrowheads + VoN?  You don't have an instant cast finisher in Fell the Weak that we don't?

 

Do you really think us having a squig pet will make up for all those things if you get Shootin' Wif Da Wind?  Really?  Seriously?

---

It's not what we don't have IMO...it's what we have that doesnt work. Mainly the GDC on every single ability we have.

Remove the GDC on some abilities, tweak some other tools and we might be fine.

Fix the damn stance problem and we might breath better.

And:

One more thing, is wait for the PTR. 

---

Schnoz wrote:

---

Quartztooth wrote:
I wonder if SW's will get the increased ranged tactic that SH's have since Magus are getting it to match the Engineer?I

---

 

I just copied this from my other post made earlier today regarding the same issue cause I'm too lazy to type it out again.

 

Those SWs asking for a Shootin Wif Da Wind tactic are smoking crack. If they can't see the problem with SWs doing 30% more damage while keeping their Scout stance (50% more with VoN), having Takedown + Keen Arrowheads (15s/15cd permasnare) at 98ft, a 98ft ranged knockdown in Takedown + VoN, Unmitigated Festering Arrow with Enchanted Arrows, two ways of increasing their critical strike rate with Steady Aim and Bullseye (2s extra cast time for a guaranteed critical means jack when you have a 98ft permasnare), and an instacast Fell The Weak, then I want some of what they're smoking.

Just imagine how annoying a Squig Herder would be if they changed our snare from a 10s/20cd (15s/20cd with tactic) to a 20s/20cd snare. Now imagine a Squig Herder that hits for 30-50% more damage, isn't gimped by a pet, has an unmitigated source of damage, 15s/15cd permasnare, 3-5s ranged knockdown, and 50-70% increased critical strike chance and you'd have a Shadow Warrior if they gave them our Shootin' Wif Da Wind tactic. If you're thinking that sounds overpowered, you're exactly right.

Squig Herders are given a range advantage because we deal 30%-50% less damage, have significantly less burst damage potential, do not have a permasnare, do not have ANY critical strike boosting abilities, and have to deal with the hassle of a pet.

 

If SWs do get a SWDW/Throwing Arm tactic it's game over for every single other class in the game.

---

Oh god...

 I'm not sure where you got the 30% more damage in scout from. Base damages: Eagle Eye 266, Plink 232(Damages from WarDB). The difference ins 32 or 14% BEFORE you add weapon dps and ballistic skill, Which both benefit the same. Unfotunately Keen Arrowheads is bugged and does not affect Takedown, making a permasnare impossible. 98 ft ranged knock down? Well interestingly enough Squig Herders have one too! It's called Death From Above(tied to your basic squiq, dont start on about needed the right pet becasue guess what? Our ranged knock down requires using a 2 minute cooldown and being in the right stance). Festering Arrow/Enchanted Arrows is great every two minutes, but you can't do too much like a Squig Herder with Aimin' Quickly can do all the time. And "instacast Fell The Weak", just lol.Gimped pet? the Squig Herder pet is mostly fire and forget, who cares if the ai is bad, it has range unlike the white lion pet. And to top it all of "[SH] deal 30%-50% less damage, have less burst potential" is just lol. Aimin' Quickly alone is a 33% increase in Plink spam compared to Eagle Eye(this is the whole damage of the spell, not the delve value), Shootin Wif Da Wind allows you to put your ranged dots on a target before a SW can even get into range to cast his. If you seriously think that SH is worse than SW, I have something to tell you, It's because you're bad.

Guys,

As I said in my preview....

• AoE damage is being reduced
• Single target damage with high base values get more bonus from stat
• Scout & Skirmisher lines both have ability improvements.

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a bad thing... The worse thing you have to deal with is waiting the extra week or two for PTS phase 2 to begin for these items to be patched up.

Before you break out torches please A) read the post carefully B) Wait to test things

Shadow Warriors are not getting worse with this patch, thats for sure.

-Adam

---

AdamG wrote:

Guys,

 

As I said in my preview....

 

• AoE damage is being reduced
• Single target damage with high base values get more bonus from stat
• Scout & Skirmisher lines both have ability improvements.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a bad thing... The worse thing you have to deal with is waiting the extra week or two for PTS phase 2 to begin for these items to be patched up.

 

Before you break out torches please A) read the post carefully B) Wait to test things

 

Shadow Warriors are not getting worse with this patch, thats for sure.

 

-Adam

---

I know that we are getting abit of love! 

So PTR's in 1 to 2 weeks huh?

They'll have to give SW a lot of amazing utility to ever be needed. The RDPS will never be anywhere close to Sorc or BW. MDPS will never be as good as a WH or WE. What do you really have left? You're handicapped because a SW is a true hybrid class. The real problem is why bother with playing a hybrid if you're going to be sub-par at everything you do? That's why they need to load the SW up with gimmicks and stop focusing so much on marginal damage increases that really changes nothing.

Adam, I appreciate you obviously reading these replies... but you're seriously closing your point with: "Shadow Warriors are not getting worse with this patch, thats for sure."

... I mean, really, that's not the kind of cheery news folks were hoping for, considering this class has been consistantly voted worst out of all 24 classes in Warhammer Alliance polls in the class balance section. 

Also, look at the feedback you're getting in the other threads on the other class balance forums. It's much more civil. Much more critical. Warrior Priests and Squig Herders. Comments like: "Not bad" or "Well, I still have a few concerns." 

People playing Shadow Warriors are looking for alot more than a few tweaks... because they have concerns that are so numerous, it would take another whole thread to list them.

There's *alot* Rank 40s here who can't stand playing their class, and are praying you throw them a lifeline. I'm guessing that they're not just suffering from mass paranoid delusion.

I gave it a try specifically for that reason, and I couldn't hack it even past Rank 15 - I missed the survivability I had on my *archmage*. That's why I want back to it. 

I mean, my one contribution is: "Can you seriously, at least, fix the stance bug?" - that's how I can sorta see this as a bad thing. If your development team hasn't even taken the time to fix that, how can we expect them to have taken the time to do a thorough evaluation of the class? They obviously have not. 

---

Taldren wrote:

Treberto, please play a shadow warrior and you will figure it out.

 

Damage is not the issue with Scout or Assault and as the only damage Skirmish has also is AoE I don't forsee the changed being very helpful.

---

Actually one of the issues with skirmish IS damage and the AoE aspect of it, whiel being toned down, will hopefulyl be made up for increases to single target. DoTs have a high base damage so should get a nice boost from stats. Yes, a SW can rack up nice scoreboard numbers with skirmish but many complain it lacks the oompf to take down a target. Most of the kills are incidental from spamming AoE. The other issue with skirmish is range, which I addressed in a possibility for an increased range (they mentioned possibly giving it to magus, so hopefully you guys, too). Of course, with charge forth it seems that mythic might want you guys to be close range skirmishers with higher damage (not counting pet) and higher crit chance than a squig herder because a skirmishing SW will most likely be using ES where as a SH wouldn't.

Scout is a damage (not relying on FA + UF + FTW combo) AND mobility issue. Having to stand still for 5+ seconds as a melee comes charging at you to do any reliable damage is a chore. If you would have read my whole post you would have read that I mentioned the possibility of 1 sec Eagle Eye. Although all I have to go on for that is "bringing abilities more in line with mirror abilities." But that'd be a new tactic and require replacing another. 

And I know the more broad SW issue is ability restriction via the stance mechanic but the post didn't address that and I was just going off of what the post addressed, which were the scout and skirmish lines.

So yes, I am well aware of Shadow Warrior issues.

ANYWAY, the big complaint I see a lot of shadow warriors bring up is that squig herders are much better in every respect and... gasp! the post by Andy states they will be bringing some abilities in line with their mirror. Isn't that something Shadow Warriors want?