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Firecrow wrote:

 

Oh and for the love of god.. PLEASE stop the teleport if you leave the fort and enter the previous zone. Getting shot all the way across the zone, in some instances is a royal pain in the backside. 

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man i'd love to see something done about this, even just the non-warp to start. i ran across the map 5 times in a row tonight and still couldn't get in the fort push.

when a game literally WONT let me play.. i mean i'd really love to, really i would but seriously, it's telling me that i'm not allowed to... well... that's about when i'll be logging and pondering why i'm paying to.. not be allowed to play?

i mean really, i'm almost finding the absurdity of it comical.

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Eryn wrote:

A 70-vs 130 fight is nearly impossible to win due to rez terror at forts. The attackers also have the advantage of leaving their healers downstairs out of harms way, while they simply roll over the top of the defenders.

 

Once the attackers break through and can get to the healers, it becomes a war of attrition, and the numbers advantage is all you need to win that. At least now defenders actually stand a chance to clean out the attackers once they push through.

 

BTW we still took forts over the weekend even with the new population caps. The fights were tougher though, and we actually had to coordinate pushes rather than everyone streaming up and  simply overwhelming the defense by sheer numbers alone.

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I don't really think a disorganized force running to the lord room as their 'defense strategy' deserves to win, honestly.

If it takes lopsided fights for people to realize there are better tactics to defending keeps and forts than 'running to lord room and mashing buttons'...so be it.

It really is not a great strategy and has become even worse with intro of choppa and slayer (adding even more frontal AE to break up a lord camp).    It's also not a fun strategy for the people playing the game, because it leads to stalemates on what is already acknowledged as being a 'way too small for current populations' ramp and lord room.

Anything to get people defending at doors, or in courtyards, or anywhere, is great as far as I'm concerned....this of course does the opposite.   It tilts the fight heavily in favor of defenders who will take the easy road and stay in the lord room.

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Zosk wrote:

 

I don't really think a disorganized force running to the lord room as their 'defense strategy' deserves to win, honestly.

 

 

 

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Let me turn that on it's head for you. I don't believe that a disorganised force running over the top of the defending side in the Lord room as their 'attack' strategy should win, honestly just due to sheer numbers alone. No skill, just button mashing AE abilities until you overwhelm the defenders.

That was the problem with the previous defender cap and I'm glad they've fixed it. Like I said we still took forts over the weekend, but it forced us as attackers to be more organised as we could not depend on sheer numebrs alone to win the day.

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Eryn wrote:

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Zosk wrote:

 

I don't really think a disorganized force running to the lord room as their 'defense strategy' deserves to win, honestly.

 

 

 

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Let me turn that on it's head for you. I don't believe that a disorganised force running over the top of the defending side in the Lord room as their 'attack' strategy should win, honestly just due to sheer numbers alone. No skill, just button mashing AE abilities until you overwhelm the defenders.

 

That was the problem with the previous defender cap and I'm glad they've fixed it. Like I said we still took forts over the weekend, but it forced us as attackers to be more organised as we could not depend on sheer numebrs alone to win the day.

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Seems a little silly to say that attackers can just run roughshod over defenders in a fort cap situation while being unorganized.  If defenders wouldn't always run straight to the lord room and defend there a single push wouldn't always let the attackers win.

Defend at the gatehouse and continue to use oil.  Defend at the fort main doors.  Defend the ramps and outer walls of the keep before attackers get to the lord.  So many oppertunities lost becuase people just perfer to stand up in the lord room, crowd the ramp and hope they don't get M4 stomped by an attacking push.

Defenders have many MANY more oppertunities than attackers to hold off an attacking siege.  The fact that they can actually stand upstairs and rely on insta spawn 43 heroes/champs to wipe an attempt is just terrible.

If your last line of defense is your first line of defense why should you get any benefits or rewards?  The defenders need to be given incentive to defend other areas as stated above.  Get them out of the stupid Lord room and play some real RvR.  Then I can understand evening out the sides.

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Andy wrote:

So just a quick FYI...

 

We did not lower the total population cap. The population cap remained the same. However, we have observed that since the GTAoE changes in 1.2.1 the defense of a fort is considerably more difficult. As such we allowed for the defenders to have slightly more numbers present and lowered the amount of attackers allowed. 

 

The attacking force will still have a numeric advantage, just slightly smaller than before. 

 

Thanks!

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Jadon wrote:

.... If Mythic is at fault for anything it's that they continue to assume people will fight.  People in MMOs are like electricity, they will take the path of least resistance requiring the least amount of work.  In this game relying on the zerg for 2 straight hours piling into keeps if they ping while letting the timers expire is the path of least resistance. 

 

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So well stated.   I have been saying this same thing for months, but not as eloquent.   Unless Mythic starts to realize this and acknowledge it, they will just continue to tweak a broken design model, making it even more broken.

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Velevil wrote:

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Eryn wrote:

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Zosk wrote:

 

I don't really think a disorganized force running to the lord room as their 'defense strategy' deserves to win, honestly.

 

 

 

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Let me turn that on it's head for you. I don't believe that a disorganised force running over the top of the defending side in the Lord room as their 'attack' strategy should win, honestly just due to sheer numbers alone. No skill, just button mashing AE abilities until you overwhelm the defenders.

 

That was the problem with the previous defender cap and I'm glad they've fixed it. Like I said we still took forts over the weekend, but it forced us as attackers to be more organised as we could not depend on sheer numebrs alone to win the day.

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Seems a little silly to say that attackers can just run roughshod over defenders in a fort cap situation while being unorganized.  If defenders wouldn't always run straight to the lord room and defend there a single push wouldn't always let the attackers win.

 

Defend at the gatehouse and continue to use oil.  Defend at the fort main doors.  Defend the ramps and outer walls of the keep before attackers get to the lord.  So many oppertunities lost becuase people just perfer to stand up in the lord room, crowd the ramp and hope they don't get M4 stomped by an attacking push.

 

Defenders have many MANY more oppertunities than attackers to hold off an attacking siege.  The fact that they can actually stand upstairs and rely on insta spawn 43 heroes/champs to wipe an attempt is just terrible.

 

If your last line of defense is your first line of defense why should you get any benefits or rewards?  The defenders need to be given incentive to defend other areas as stated above.  Get them out of the stupid Lord room and play some real RvR.  Then I can understand evening out the sides.

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Exactly.  This whole 'run to the lord room' defense of keeps and forts is tired.       The further you let the attacking force into a structure, the HARDER it should be to stop them.   

It's sad Mythic allows the keeps and forts in this game to become 'the area surrounding the lord room'.    And then, when they see data that people are having trouble defending the lord room...they handicap it for them?   

I suppose I should be fair and state that half of this is the players fault, at least, who still seem unwilling to defend anywhere but lord rooms because even if they don't win as much as they used to...at least they didn't have to think or anything!

Um, I have never, ever been in a keep defense where we decided to stay in the lord room the whole time.

...ok maybe once in Passwatch, but that was because we didn't want to scare Destro off by showing them our numbers.

It's still easier to defend if you can stop the enemy from ever knocking the door down. I don't see how that could change.

I guess I should clarify....sitting on the walls sniping with siege pointlessly until the door gets to 25% and then running to next door or lord room is not a valid defense strategy.

You will never stop anybody like that unless you vastly outnumber them or they are horribly organized (or level 28s in T4, or something).

If you mean people actually defended at doors, or made strikes out of posterns, or held courtyards....then all I can say is, you're on an awesome server because I've never seen or even heard of such a thing....the default defense is 'snipe at people pointlessly' and fall back when the door falls....only making a real stand in the Lord Room.

And yes, it's *not* the best defense....that's the point.   But if Mythic is willing to handicap the fort fight so that this bad tactic works, then why bother trying?  It's easy and Mythic will fudge the numbers for you until it works about 50% of the time! 

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Andy wrote:

So just a quick FYI...

 

We did not lower the total population cap. The population cap remained the same. However, we have observed that since the GTAoE changes in 1.2.1 the defense of a fort is considerably more difficult. As such we allowed for the defenders to have slightly more numbers present and lowered the amount of attackers allowed. 

 

The attacking force will still have a numeric advantage, just slightly smaller than before. 

 

Thanks!

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Thanks for the Clarification.

With the increase in numbers for defenders, and the balancing of GTAoE, will you now consider the rather harsh spawn/respawn rates for Champion guards in and below the Lord's room

As it stands today, the Attackers may have a numeric advantage, but the Defenders have a never-ending army of Champion guards to help them out, as well as chokepoints to base their defence around which let their RDPS attack with almost total impunity.

I remember coming up through tier 2.... There was one time where a warband of destruction was attempting to take Fangbreaka Swamp, and my half-warband of defenders decided to tank wall them right behind the front door as it fell.  That was probably the most fun defense I've ever had.  Seeing the door burst open to reveal a wall of mismatched shields was epic.

I've never been a fan of the fortress lord-room defense.  When there's a whole fortress to fight over, it seems silly to rely on a last resort.

In higher tiers, the biggest issue with creating a defense at doors and other locations is the fact both sides are on the same z-axis. This means the tank wall is susceptible to pull abilities: fetch, TE, rift, magnet and the occasional GTDC. These abilities ruin any attempt to develop a real defense in any place other than stairs.

The stair defense forces the attackers to rush directly into the tank wall. Whereas a door defense will resort to the attackers pulling the tank wall apart until it's weak enough to blitz.

Uh..well seriously..that's the whole point of pull abiltiies....to break up defensive positions.

It's really not a fun dynamic currently at all....tank walls blocking the stairs is either so effective the fight becomes boring and a loss...or completely ineffective and the defense force quickly is destroyed as they have no further place to fall back to.

I don't think pulls would completely prevent a tank wall at a door.    So they are pulled out....a healer rezzes them from the wall, heals, and they run back down.     The attackers would have to organize the pull in order to push.

Also..tank wall isn't really the only way to go, of course....since the #s are relatively even... you could go out another door and hit force from behind or set up lines of melee AE and AE casters to chokepoint them DAOC style.   Or any combination of these strategies.

But as long as Mythic's going to handicap the fight so 'run to lord room' wins.....that's what we're going to end up with because its the least risky, easiest to organize, and Mythic will fudge the numbers to make it effective even if it is not.....

Would still like an answer to why the system needs to be adjusted so that lord room camps usually win, here.

Also, anybody really having much luck taking forts when the defenders are capped?    I have my doubts.    If you somehow manage to surprise them or keep them out, maybe...but how do you really get into a lord room with 100 people who are all setup and prepared for you?

Anybody got any tactics that work besides suprising them and keeping the 100 people out?  (Not really an option for most servers most of the time).

The anti-rez aura is particularly a problem.    People who actually charge and try to break through can almost never be rezzed if the attempt fails.   But defenders can always be rezzed once they push back the attempt.   (Not to mention the loot screws make people cautious issue)